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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8155
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | 1
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"So, I asked him and his response was that he used the interpretation that would give us a real fight, instead of Thor killing him in the first panel."
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Someone please answer me this - my knowledge of Avengers history is very spotty - hasn't Thor hurled his hammer at The Hulk several times over the years? Hulk has no invulnerability to magic, either....so if that's happened (and I would assume it has at this point), if a hammer strike can kill Superman, can't it kill the Hulk as well?
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 2
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I think we all identified the main issue with the crossover -- that it was *about* a crossover, rather than simply being a great JLA/Avengers story. I still want to read JB's version. Maybe after the JSA/Invaders?
What I loved about GENERATIONS is that there was no in-story reason for some of the contradictions (Superboy's career, for instance) -- similar to how it played out in the comics at the time. And, not surprisingly, it was just as FUN as those comics were. JLA/Avengers should have been as FUN as the Spider-Man/Superman crossover. Forget continuity. For once, you're doing a story in which the JLA and Avengers co-exist. Have fun!
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7854
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 1:29am | IP Logged | 3
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I agree with the comment that you didn't need to know who Darkseid was for the X-Men / Teen Titans to work. I'd never read the Teen Titans either and enjoyed the book loads. In fact, after that came out, I went on a Teen Titans scavanger hunt for the back issues.
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Rod Collins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 938
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 2:52am | IP Logged | 4
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It would be like reading about Batman meeting Sherlock Holmes without knowing who Holmes is. You wouldn't get why it's special. I think Mike Barr and Alan Davis did this in their run on Detective Comics.
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Jason Uresti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 February 2006 Location: United States Posts: 72
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 3:02am | IP Logged | 5
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The only DC/Marvel crossovers I've found satisfying were Superman/Silver Surfer and Darkseid vs Galactus.
That crossover was the last time I can remember a story where Galactus was treated with the awe and respect he should always command on the page. Anything lately, he just shows up to be defeated or enslaved or killed, to show how powerful some other guy is.
I confess that I couldn't even finish JLA/Avengers. The whole story just seemed such a mess, and the script didn't have room for any fun battles between heroes.
Have to agree with the assessment that it was a fan story, but worse, it was a story for the fan in Kurt Busiek. A story aimed at trying to please everybody would not have worked, but at least could have been viewed as a naive attempt at pleasing the crowd; Busiek's was just him playing with the toys and games he liked best.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 4:04am | IP Logged | 6
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While Perez might be a bit awkward on dialogue, but he's an excellent plotter/co-plotter. His New Titans stuff was crammed with panels with very good character bits and interactions. And when he works with writers who play to that and give him room to do that, he works wonders. The New Titans: Games GN for instance, the Wolfman script was ... par for the course, but what Perez did with it visually and narratively was breathtaking. I was a bit disappointed with JLA/Avengers myself, and it was mainly that there was so much "over-plot" crammed and not as much of the standard Perez character-stuff that I remember. I think, just guessing here, that it might have to do with writers starting to write "Perez pages" with 20 panels and then expecting the magic to happen. I would think that the best way to write for Perez would be to write a tight plot, with some dialogue, for a story with 6-panel pages and letting Perez work over that. Just like a penciller might want to provide looser pencils for inkers like Tom Palmer, Klaus Janson or Kevin Nowlan in order to leave them room to do what they do so well, I imagine that with a penciller/storyteller like George Perez, a looser plot (with enough room for Perez to expand the story his way) would be better. I don't know how Busiek and Perez worked on JLA/Avengers, but I wish it had a much tighter focus on the core team members and had shown some good character bits there.
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Lars Johansson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 6113
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 4:19am | IP Logged | 7
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Silver Surfer and Superman that suffered from the same problems as JLA Avengers. Also, that was the first time since Man of Steel that Superman wasn't an embryo, but a child sent to Earth. So for the last reason at least thumbs down.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133561
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 5:28am | IP Logged | 8
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It would be like reading about Batman meeting Sherlock Holmes without knowing who Holmes is. You wouldn't get why it's special.++ I think Mike Barr and Alan Davis did this in their run on Detective Comics. •• As I recall, there were legal reasons DC could not actually identify Holmes in that story.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133561
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 5:35am | IP Logged | 9
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I do agree that these type of crossovers are not a good way to introduce a new reader to the DC and Marvel universes.•• And yet the first one did precisely that! Remember the "We Now Pause for Hero Identification" pages? Today, I am sure, those would have caused much foaming at the mouth from anal fans who would claim to be insulted by any suggestion that they did not already know who Superman and Spider-Man were -- and that anyone who didn't should go read a few hundred back issues and CATCH UP! In fact, when I did DARKSEID vs GALACTUS I included similar pages, to bring up to speed what I knew would be very narrowly focused Marvel and DC fans, and when he read the plot, Mark Gruenwald originally told me to take out those pages, as "Everybody knows who these guys are." Everybody? DC and Marvel were smart enough to assume that not EVERYBODY would know who Superman and Spider-Man were, but Mark thought everybody would know Darkseid and Galactus? Alas, that is the kind of myopic thinking that was beginning to show itself more and more in comics -- and of which JLA/AVENGERS is the worst example. (Hm. Hold on that. KINGDOM COME might be the worst. I seem to recall page after page after page in which no one is called by name.)
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Don Zomberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005 Posts: 2355
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 10
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Well, in Kingdom Dumb's "defense," by the time Alex Ross got through cramming ten to twenty characters per panel, there wasn't room left to name any of them.
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8155
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 11
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The most frustrating thing about Kingdom Come was that not only did we get a DC Universe Alex Ross book set in the future so the characters were not in their traditional appearances, the book was full of new characters that were supposedly the offspring of other DC characters, but for the most part, it was never explained who they were.Like for instance, I never would have realized that one of the characters was the daughter of Starfire and Nightwing if I didn't read that in an issue of Wizard afterwards.
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 24 October 2011 at 9:57am
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 24 October 2011 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 12
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Why the heck WOULDN'T or SHOULDN'T they be a great way to introduce new readers to comics?
So many people these days, because of cartoons and movies, understand that Superman and Spider-Man, Batman and Iron Man, don't exist in the same comic book Universe. Putting out a book that has ALL of them could potentially attract scores of new readers by making even the average joe ask "What the heck kind of book has Green Lantern AND Captain America?"
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