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Rick Whiting
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Joined: 22 April 2004
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 12:33am | IP Logged | 1  

I was thinking about this earlier. Thru the magic of hindsight, I'd probably have used the original Avengers and the original JLA, set in a non-specific time period. Have the JLA go to New York to check out the Avengers, since the latter group has a dangerous monster -- the Hulk -- as one of their "members".

___________________________________

IIRC, that's pretty much how Steve Rude handled the Superman/Hulk crossover one shot. IMO, that one shot was pretty darn good. The story was simple and straight to the point, and was easy for a new reader to understand.
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Rod Collins
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 2  

The Roger Stern/Steve Rude book is up there with JB's Batman/Captain America as far as crossovers done right go.

Avengers/JLA was a bit like "I'm clever, just look at my knowledge of these universes".  It really did throw in everything and the kitchen sink and got kind of bogged down in parts.  Lovely art by Perez though.

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Steven McCauley
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 3  

At the time it was published I read and re-read JLA/Avengers.  I have purchased the TPB.  I LOVE the artwork.  My favorite part is in issue 3 once the realities have merged and we get to see the JLA and Avengers operating much like the JSA and JLA did.  I can see the fan wankery in it -- and I loved it.  

It is an incredibly "part of the club" title.  You have to know about these situations, villains, locations to get the true resonance with this title.  There were things that were WAY over-thought.  The size of the Earths, Hawkeye comparing the JLA to the Squadron Supreme, the antagonism of Captain America and Superman towards the others' universes.

Is it my favorite crossover (like I always assumed it would be)?  No, JB's Captain America / Batman is that, followed closely by both Superman / Spider-Man titles.  But, I still read it occasionally.


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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 4  

Some of you have commented that Avengers/JLA series was not new
reader friendly, but are crossovers ever really written for the "new
reader" or are they written for the long-time fan who wants their
favorites to met?

Take the X-men/Teen Titans crossover. Great story, but unless you
already know about Darkseid and the Dark Phoniex saga, you won't get
the whole story.

I don't think I'd give any crossover book to someone as their
introduction to comics. They need to know these guys before they
read about them meeting. It would be like reading about Batman
meeting Sherlock Holmes without knowing who Holmes is. You
wouldn't get why it's special.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 5  

…Hawkeye comparing the JLA to the Squadron Supreme…

••

The only thing worse than fan-wankery is fan-wankery that overtly calls attention to itself.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 6  

It's exactly was many fans would try to do themselves if given such a book to work on.

••

"The first story you'd do as a fan. . . "

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Paul Simpson Simpson
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 7  

Take the X-men/Teen Titans crossover. Great story, but unless you
already know about Darkseid and the Dark Phoniex saga, you won't get
the whole story.
************************

Not necessarily. I had no idea who Darkseid was, but it didn't take long to figure out that he was a major DC villain and what his motivation was. I didn't need to know everything about him to follow the story.

I do agree that these type of crossovers are not a good way to introduce a new reader  to the DC and Marvel universes.

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Johan Vikberg
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 8  

There are a few problems with this book.

One is the story itself, with all these incomprehensible cosmic beings and implications. It’s just too vast to make sense of. The whole of book three I just leafed through, understanding nothing. At some point I guess Galactus died”. That’s a bad idea right there.

Two: There are just so many characters it would take a thousand pages (a serious estimate) to do everything justice. As it is, it’s full of missed opportunities. It’s very touching how Batman and Captain America get along; it’s touching how Captain America notes their similarities (“You lost a partner?”); it’s great that Batman admits that Captain America could beat him – but there are so many characters that open to equally powerful writing, and there just isn’t room to do anything with them. Each of these characters is (roughly the equivalent of) a human being. This is a world of missed opportunities.

Some specifics: 

I loved to see Thor’s hammer draw blood on Superman. That’s how powerful I imagine Thor to be. Perhaps it is because I’m Nordic – but in routine Marvel stuff the Thunder God often seems a pushover.

Later, however, Superman was simply being a jerk to Thor. Superman can be a lot of things, in my mind, but never an outright jerk.  

I don’t mind that he beats Thor, seeing how overpowered he is. And I see what they tried to do when Superman says Thor “may be my single toughest opponent ever”. But it doesn’t work – the books are too crammed, the fight has to be kept too short. Superman has fought opponents that took more than eleven panels to vanquish, and when Thor needs to be beaten so quickly, he doesn’t seem so tough, regardless of what words they put in Clark’s mouth.

On the positive side, Superman lifting Mjölnir was nothing short of awesome – especially as he could only do it as long as Thor allowed it. And, it’s great that Superman puts Captain America in command. But I feel moments like these are always underplayed in this book, because it’s so damn crammed that everything has to be kept short to make way for something cosmic and incomprehensible. If someone lifts Thor’s hammer, it deserves a spread.

Last but not least, what’s up with the women? They get almost no bubble space at all. It’s like they’re not really there. It’s almost perverse. It’s not hard to see why so few girls read this stuff. (Harder to see why boys read it at all – don’t boys like girls?)

In fact, I have scrutinized all four books in search of what female characters actually say to each other. This is the full and entire extent of women’s interaction with other women in this whole comic.

Book one:

Wasp: Calamari is squid.”
She-Hulk: Who cares!?”

Civilian woman to Scarlet Witch: “You with the JSA? You’re too old to be Titans!” (No response.)

Book two:

Nothing. (The closest you get is two people on Paradise Island (where everyone’s a woman) exclaiming stuff like ”Great Hera!” into the air in the same panel.)

The incomprehensible book three:

Nothing. Two whole books in a row of nothing!

Book four:

Lana Lang hands over to Lois Lane on some news broadcast. (Lois doesn’t say anything.)

Scarlet Witch: Green on Alpa Quadrant. Green on Beta Quadrant ... New readings ...”
Wonder Woman: You’re very focused, Wanda.”
Scarlet Witch: Yes. I’ll be fine as long as I have something to do.”

Wonder Woman: We’ve got them on the run.”
Someone whom I can’t even make out who she is: Yes, and –”
Wasp: Wait! At the Citadel! What’s –”

Wasp: Wanda, does what I’m seeing mean what I fear it does?”
Scarlet Witch: It’s ... bad. I’m trying to reach into the chaos-field – bring more of us through. Keep more of them out – but Jan, I can tell ... we’re almost out of time ...!”

She-Hulk: Hey, Star-Shorts! Thought I might hang, in case you get bored. We could talk girl talk – you know, ass-kicking, name-taking, like that.”
Wonder Woman: Aye, and I stand with you as well, daughter. I ... am honered. And I thank you. Forward, then – for the glory of Gaea!”

Wasp: Sho how’re we doing, Wanda?”
Scarlet Witch: It’s hard ... hard to tell! I think ... we’re blocking Krona from bringing more reinforcements, but ... there may only be seconds left ...”

This is downright unreal. This is four books crammed to the brim with men talking to each other – not just drawing up battle lines, but male bonding as much as space permits. The only instance of female bonding (or normal human interaction between women) has to be some kind of meta-talk about girl talk”!

Damn, I must have spent too much time in the real world, where women actually talk to each other.


Edited by Johan Vikberg on 23 October 2011 at 5:50pm
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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 9  

I've touched on my dislike of this miniseries before, and each time this topic comes up I go back and re-read it but the thing doesn't age well.

Busiek is supposed to be almost an historian with his knowledge of Marvel characters yet he completely doesn't understand how Thor's hammer works. Mjolnir hits with its own devastating magical impact regardless of who wields it. If Thor was able to tag Superman with it, which would require Superman not to use his super-speed to easily avoid getting hit, than Mjolnir would knock Superman unconscious. At the very least Superman would always be vulnerable to Mjolnir's magical impacts and would not be able to simply block a full-strength blow with the palm of his hand.

The rest of the miniseries is a mediocre, boring, paint-by-numbers story that feels like anyone could have written. It's such an obvious and predictable read that the only surprises in the story are things Busiek threw in that are out of of character, don't make sense, or simply don't work.

Krona killing Galactus and doing so, easily with no repercussions?? Captain America and Superman being judgemental pricks to each other? Green Lantern charging his ring from Cosmic Cube?

This whole cross-over is such a phenomenally mediocre waste of George Perez's stunning pencils that it's heart-breaking.

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | 10  

Mjolnir hits with its own devastating magical impact regardless of who wields it. If Thor was able to tag Superman with it, which would require Superman not to use his super-speed to easily avoid getting hit, than Mjolnir would knock Superman unconscious. At the very least Superman would always be vulnerable to Mjolnir's magical impacts and would not be able to simply block a full-strength blow with the palm of his hand.

••

Being actually ABLE to hit him is, of course, the key problem, but I have said for years -- nay, DECADES -- that if Thor was actually able to hit Superman with Mjolnir, it would be like one very strong guy hitting another very strong guy -- WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

++

Krona killing Galactus…

••

Galactus, of course, being so closely associated with the Avengers. . .

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | 11  

Concerning the large cast, if you are doing a major event, and Perez is
the artist and you don't have a cast of "thousands", then you shouldn't
be writing a book Perez is drawing. For a monthly, sticking to the main
cast is fine, but when it is supposed to be a major event like any
company crossover, let Perez do what he can do better than nearly
anyone.

I asked Busiek why he went that route with Superman and the
hammer, because even though we all have our own viewpoints on this
weakness, DC isn't consistent. Superman and magic goes across the
board and writers/editors don't agree on how it should work. So, I
asked him and his response was that he used the interpretation that
would give us a real fight, instead of Thor killing him in the first panel.

As far as Superman dodging the hammer? Superman gets tagged by
his opponents a thousand times a year. He doesn't dodge everyone's
attack, so why would Thor be any different.
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Valmor J. Pedretti
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Posted: 23 October 2011 at 8:47pm | IP Logged | 12  

One of the things that makes those crossovers a bit dull is the fact that writers will have to try to keep both sides cool, with nobody exactly "winning" (except for that Marvel vs. DC voting madness).

So, maybe it should be played as a real contest. Marvel and DC could agree on a few ground rules, and each of them produces a story where their respective team defeats the other and they're published simultaneously by each camp, with their hired guns. Let the audience pick sides or choose which one came up with the best angle.

Could this work?
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