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Craig Robinson
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 1  

You know, I think my LCS guy has some serious direct market ennui right now.  Twice in the past few weeks, he's just given me backissues.  I picked up #0 and #1 of JBNM  (Dark Horse run).  He's like, just take 'em.

Yesterday, I went in to get some old Wolverine issues (I've been on John Wraith kick lately and am picking up his appearances). Same deal, the LCS guy was like, eff it, take 'em.

I suspect this relaunch is going to do nothing more but highlight the woes of DMS, rather than to reignite it.



Edited by Craig Robinson on 30 June 2011 at 1:19pm
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Brad Danson
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 2  

I agree with Sean's point.  Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends made me a superhero fan.  I fell in love with it and started picking up comics because of it.  I even started watching Super Friends because of it (a show which I had previously not liked.)  But what would have happened if I was a kid today and started liking superheroes because of a TV show?  There are dozen of other mediums to enjoy them in before going to the "trouble" of actually reading about them.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 3  

...comicbook-inclined kids have a lot of options within their narrow band of interest.

****

They don't have the option that millions of kids used to have for many decades: all ages comicbooks made and widely marketed by an industry that cherished kids as not only a but even the indispensable component of its audience.

Why kids' interest in comics should be "narrow," I don't understand. From my own experience, no matter what non-comicbook product got into my hands or before my eyes, that only served to fire even more my primary passion for the comicbooks themselves.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 4  

I wasn't speaking specifically, I was speaking generally.  When presented with 50 options to do on a given day or 100, it's still a ton of choices.  I'm not saying anyone here, but in past debates on this very subject people have framed it as if there was hardly anything to do or nary a choice to be made back in 1976.  Getting more specific now, I could have done a ton of things before I picked up a comic book, but I chose to read them because I enjoyed them not because they were literally the only option or one of two that I could pick from.
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 5  

I'm with Matt, Sean. I'm a little younger than you guys (b. 1980) and I grew up playing countless hours of the original Nintendo, SNES, Sega Genesis, Turbographix16... I can't even tell you how much time I spent as a kid playing video games. Heck, one of the comics I collect today - the new Mega Man series - is entirely based on my love of that classic game from when I was a kid. 

I still rode my bike everywhere, and made forts and played army with my friends. I still built snow castles in the winter, went sledding, and had snowball fights almost daily. I still got outside and played. 

I still watched countless hours of Transformers, GI:Joe, Thundercats, Silverhawks, Ghostbusters, Fraggle Rock, Ducktales, Chip N' Dale's Rescue Rangers... all of which scratched pretty much the same itch as superhero comics. Heck, many of those WERE comics, or based on comics, though I didn't know it at the time (Carl Barks Library coming soon to my bookshelf!).

Plus, I was an only child/grandchild, so I was spoiled rotten by my grandma. I had nearly every GI:Joe or Transformer or He-Man or superhero toy I wanted (which also informs what I collect TODAY, incidentally). My God, I've gone two paragraphs without mentioned Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and all the hours I spent pretending to be them with my friends when we were playing at recess! Going back to Mega Man and video games, I've got a piece of my scalp missing on the back of my head from pretending to be Mega Man and jumping down a flight of stairs (it's from the one time I DIDN'T make it). 

I was also a voracious reader. Read every Hardy Boys book I could get my hands on. I started reading Stephen King when I was 9, and kids in my class were still reading R.L. Steins Goosebumps books (to this day I've never read one). You think Harry Potter is taking kids away from superheroes? I've been reading Lord of the Rings at least once a year since I was 14. 

One day when I was 10, I went to the local video store and instead of renting a Nintendo game, I rented Tim Burton's Batman. I watched Superman and Superman II often, and saw Quest For Peace at the Drive-In. Yes, we had superhero movies too! And cartoons - I still watched the classic 60's Spider-Man when I was young, and the 1992 X-Men cartoon when I was 12. And Batman the Animated Series is still MY definitive Batman, the way others have Adams or Miller or Sprang or Aparo. 

What didn't we have as kids that's around today? The Internet? That's not that big a deal, really, since most kids play video games on it (which we had) or listen to music on it (which we had) I've been a fan of Bon Jovi, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Led Zeppelin, etc since I was barely in grade school. Heck, I had my own (albeit second hand) record player! ZZ Top Eliminator was my first LP. 

The Internet, as amazing as it is, isn't adding something "new" in and of itself, it's just something that makes doing old things faster and easier. I had plenty of libraries to visit in my day to get all the information I wanted on dinosaurs, sharks, space, monsters, ghosts, aliens, birds, bears... I probably know more about Great White Sharks than any two people on this board, and I've never seen an ocean. Loved those things since I was a tot.

I apologize for the epic, but it's meant to make a point. I've typed out a tremendous amount of stuff that I did as a kid, and I haven't even mentioned comics yet. And boy, did I LOVE comics! You know what was really great about them? They were ubiquitous in those days. Couldn't enter a corner store or gas station without seeing a rack. They were impulse items, and they were so readily available I never had to worry about getting the next Spider-Man or X-Men comic, I knew it would pop up somewhere in my many travels.

The only difference between why kids read comics 20 years ago and they don't today isn't that there are too many distractions from comics - it's comics themselves not being available anymore. 


Edited by Brad Krawchuk on 30 June 2011 at 1:42pm
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Brennan Voboril
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 6  

Kids haven't read comics in a long time have they?  I mean outside of Archie or things like that?  
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 7  

But what would have happened if I was a kid today and started liking superheroes because of a TV show?

***

This is just a personal example:

My 17 year old stepson a decade ago got very into superheroes through a host of non-comicbook products. But he never saw comicbooks themselves for sale in all the places a then 7 year old was likely to be. We were in a used book store and happened to found a host of issues of "The Fantastic Four" from the 70s, and even though these were hardly the best comicbooks and also from his perspective quite old, and on top of that even though he had a diagnosed reading problem and struggled with any text, he begged me to buy a few dozen for him. I did, of course, and he tore through them with glee. But that joy dissipated when we went to a comicbook store and he couldn't make heads or tales of contemporary comics. I bought him several comicbooks, different titles, different companies, over many months, but he just did not like any of them. Comics weren't made for him anymore -- and even if they were, he couldn't find them on his own. 

What a vastly different experience I had when I first discovered comics some 40 plus years ago! And I discovered superheroes from TV, not from comics themselves -- but I and millions of kids like me at least could move easily from TV to comicbooks that both welcomed us and were pretty much everywhere we were likely to be.

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Brian Joseph Mayer
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 8  

"If I've heard this sentiment once, I've heard it a thousand times and I still don't agree...  "

Reading the comments you had after this one, I think we are on the same page Matt. I did not intend to make it sound like we had nothing to do when we were kids. We did have very full days. My point was that there is just more competition for that limited amount of time that a kid has. It makes it more difficult for all.

You mentioned Lincoln Logs. I am sure my kids would enjoy Lincoln Logs, I know I loved them as a kid.  But to my knowledge, they have never played with Lincoln Logs. This wasn't intentional. They just haven't come to mind. Lincoln Logs are the same product they have always been, I am sure. But nobody in my house has ever thought, "we need Lincoln Logs."

That is what I mean by competition. Our days were completely full as a kids. Kids have the exact same amount of time, but now they have to cram more in and they have more options to choose from. So you have to create something that is bigger, brighter, and more attention grabbing than the competition.  

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 9  

And don't forget, unlike when we were kids, parents didn't schedule
every minute of our lives, and didn't keep an eye on us 24/7. So no
kids today do not have the same play we did 30 years ago.
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 10  

Parents may not have scheduled every day of our lives, but my mom and grandma were sure as heck the two most important people in my early comics-reading days. Who do you think brought home Spider-Man and Batman comics from the store when I was 2 or 3? 

My point - and I hope Matt would agree - is that that particular selling point isn't valid anymore. I've given comics to kids at schools, daycares, and in general, and the one overwhelming fact is, the kids LOVE the stories. Boys, girls, doesn't matter - I've had a half dozen Kindergartens enthralled for two hours while I read them my Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Spider-Man Omnibus. 

I'm sure their parents would be more than happy to snap up a few copies of Batman, Superman, or Hulk for them if they were available at mass market stores* and could be an impulse purchase. 

*Being available at mass market stores would also alter the content of the books, because they'd have to be written FOR the mass market, not the aging white male demographic that frequents the speciality market.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 11  

According to an article read, parents today are discouraging their kids
from reading picture books. The children's book industry is seeing a
decline in the sales of picture books, as parents tell their children to
read chapter books. This decline is at the industry level, so while few
anadotes may say otherwise, sales are dropping. (Classics still sell, but
not new material.)

If parents are telling kids "you can do better" with picture books,
imagine what they'd say about comics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/us/08picture.html

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 30 June 2011 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 12  

According to an article read, parents today are discouraging their kids
from reading picture books. The children's book industry is seeing a
decline in the sales of picture books, as parents tell their children to
read chapter books. This decline is at the industry level, so while few
anadotes may say otherwise, sales are dropping. (Classics still sell, but
not new material.)

If parents are telling kids "you can do better" with picture books,
imagine what they'd say about comics.

-----

Same thing they've been saying for almost 60 years? The "comics are for illiterates" trope is hardly new. Didn't stop kids from reading them.

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