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Bill Catellier Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2007 Location: United States Posts: 3225
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 1
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After following this thread, plus reading some online articles, I think I'm made a decision. Only a few of these relaunches look interesting. I think I'm done with weekly buying from DC (already stopped Marvel) and just waiting for TPB. Whether this is a year long event or a permanent change it seems the perfect situation to make the switch. More convenient and I'll save money. Wonder if I'll even feel like I'm missing anything.
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13704
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 2
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Superhero comics have fallen into this never-ending cycle of one-upsmanship. Each story has to be bigger than the previous one. It's not good enough to tell a decent, 22 page Batman story. They might produce a one shot and stamp elseworlds or something like that on it (that way there's a #1 on the cover and it might sell more). But that's not good enough for the real and ongoing titles. Stories have to cross-over, include the majority of a character's rogues gallery, someone has to die! Someone has to be reborn! Someone has to get a new costume!!!
I mean think about it. If you're somewhere around 35 years old or younger, that's what superhero comics have always been! That's what you were raised on! Now that you have a position of authority at Marvel or DC why would you steer the company any other direction?
Edited by Joe Hollon on 11 June 2011 at 7:51am
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Michael Todd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2009 Location: United States Posts: 4115
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
If you're somewhere around 35 years old or younger, that's what superhero comics have always been! |
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That is just sad.
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13704
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 4
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Yep! Pick any well-known character and think about their history since about, say, 1985 or so. How much stability has there been? I bet not much!
Let's take Spider-Man for example!
1985- switching back and forth between a red/blue costume and a black/white costume
1986/1987- engaged and eventually married to MJ
1988/1989- Todd McFarlane becomes a huge fan favorite with a style that is dramatically different than anything we've seen before. The character appearing in the flagship title at this time is not on model even with the same character's other titles!
Early-mid-90s- Spider-Clone saga! Everything you know is a lie!!! huge crossover!!! Buy lots of comics to follow the same crappy story!!! Aunt May dead!!! Peter's parents alive!! MJ has a baby!!! Norman Osborne is alive again!
Late-90s- Relaunch! Start over with new #1 issues!!! Aunt May is alive again!!! Spider-baby? What Spider-baby?
2000s- JMS debacle. Gwen Stacy ****s Norman Osborne and has babies with him who grow up to fight Spider-Man (or something)!!!
Late 2000s- Deal with the Devil!!! Everything you know is a lie!!!
Rinse, wash, repeat. A DC example would've been better for this thread but Spidey is what I'm more familiar with for a quick example. Go ahead and try, it works with any character!
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 8:21am | IP Logged | 5
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Batwing - DC trumpets this character as the first African American to wear the Bat-mantle. While he is certainly Black, but he's really not Batman. Just as Steel was really not Superman. Somehow comic book companies perceive "not really and could never be" status is an immense honor to bestow, worthy of immediate interest. There's virtually nothing on this cover that makes me think this character or book is interesting. ************************************************************ ****************** The character is not an African-American and nothing I've seen from DC is promoting him as such. From what I've read he's an African (From the Congo, IIRC) and he said to be the first Black character take a Batman inspired identity. Which isnt quite true, either. There was a character called "Blackwing" ( who was an African-American) who appeared in the Huntress back up strip in the Wonder Woman comic back in the 70s and 80s. He was inspired by Batman ( Earth-2 version) Created by Paul Levitz.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4185
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 6
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Joe Hollon "Yep! Pick any well-known character and think about their history since about, say, 1985 or so. How much stability has there been? I bet not much!" You pick any 25 year period in the history of any continuously published character, esp. since 1955, and you can play the same game. Admittedly, changes in the 50s tended to more about types of stories that were told than significant character changes per se (can you imagine the Batman of "The Origin of Batman" (Batman #47) hanging out with a sycophantic imp?), but still... It's true things were a little more stable back in the Golden Age (after an initial refinement period and depending on what character you're talking about), but then again they were also more prepared to ditch characters back then rather than revamping to sustain or increase interest.
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13704
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 7
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You pick any 25 year period in the history of any continuously published character, esp. since 1955, and you can play the same game.
*********
My point and example was how much they change year-to-year, not over that 25 year period as a whole. But since you brought it up, how about Superman from about 1959 to the early 80s? Not a whole lot of change comes to mind. Certainly not if you compare that to the most recent 25 years of the character.
Edited by Joe Hollon on 11 June 2011 at 9:22am
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Ray Brady Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3740
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 8
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On the whole, things aren't quite as bad as I expected them to be. I've got two Legion books, which is good, and I'll buy anything that Giffen draws, so OMAC is in, as well. Beyond that, I've never been disappointed by Jurgens or Abnett & Lanning, so I'll likely be picking up JLI and Resurrection Man as well.
That means I'm dropping from 6 books a month to 5. Not as bad as it could have been.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 9
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Mike, thanks for making the point about Blackwing! DC is advertising their new character as the first ever, but he isn't. There's also a momentary appearance of a black Batman in the Denny O'Neil story told from the point of view of kids around a campfire, speculating on who or what Batman is. One describes a mysterious, spooky being who oozes under doorways like smoke. Another, a black kid, is convinced Batman has to be a brother with high-tech weaponry and cool rocket wings.
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Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 10
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http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/06/03/friday-f rom-the-cheap-seats/ Nice little article laying out salient points, though nothing that hasn't been said ad nauseum on this forum for over a decade.
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Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 11
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I think if DC was to really change everything about the way their comics are distributed to the story content, they'd simply do away with continuity altogether. Yet they are going to cling to "Blackest Night" and whatever Morrison has done as a core. Which stinks, but whatever. What I mean is, get rid of continuity. I mean all of it. Don't worry about it any longer, more accurately. If the focus is to turn away from the core fan, then the core motivations behind the characters is purified. If you don't have to worry, in Batman comics, about anything other than Batman's parents being murdered and a long-standing rivalry with the Joker, then you've purified the character. But DC isn't even doing that, unless as someone suggested they keep Dick Grayson as Batman II, with all these Robins as some kind of farm system for Batmen of the future. Which f*cks up any kind of purity of content in the Batman universe. And it all makes Batman creepy as sh*t, if he's been sneaking boys into his twisted Batworld as partners for decades. I mean, really. If you have to keep "former Robins", I'd have them operate under assumed codenames that are not Robin, having been influenced by some connection to Batman over their lives. Kind of like how the Legion of Superheroes was influenced by tales of Superboy. But don't have a direct connection to Bruce Wayne. At this point in modern continuity, who doesn't or cannot figure that Bruce is Batman? Here's an idea: how about nobody know Bruce is Batman? Like, NOBODY. Except Alfred, natch. Not even Robin knows. Not Superman. Not the JLA. Not any of Bruce's bedmates. Did the Shadow's most trusted agents know his identity? Did they need to?
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4185
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Posted: 11 June 2011 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 12
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Joe, offhand it starts with the introduction Superman's sole living relative (we'll ignore that Superboy story... :-) ); a general change in the stories where Superman is truly Kal-El (originally the Kryptonian connection was just there to explain what he's doing lifting cars over his head and he didn't know about it until 1949); the introduction of more varieties of Kryptonite, esp. red, which led to a whole sub genre of Superman stories; all Kryptonite is destroyed; Clark Kent becomes a television reporter; Superman and Lois start dating for real; Superman and Lois break up due to The Job; Kandor gets restored, meaning there's basically a Krypton again; Clark Kent starts dating Lana; Luthor and Brainiac get revamped; and when we hit 1984, we're two years away from the whole saga starting over from scratch. Since 1985, aside from his origin getting adjusted everytime the wind changes, "big picture" changes haven't occured all THAT often. Lois Lane finds out his id and they later got married, but the rest of the stories just come and go. The main difference between now and then is that current writers take more time to tell their stories. In the Julius Schwartz period they did a "Superman (or maybe Clark Kent) No More"ish kind of story (#296-299), but it was four issues in one title rather than an 8 month event, you know? Instead of putting the toys back in the box to start the next story after 8 pages, they take 8 issues.
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