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Brian Hague
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 1  

Tony, I like that idea a lot.

 

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 2  

I dunno; "Here's your replacement wheelchair-bound heroine" almost strikes me as being more insulting for those affected by the reversal.  I'm morbidly curious to see if there's a "replacement Oracle" in the new Birds of Prey book. 

And Alan Moore had nothing to do with Oracle's continued existance.  Babs stayed Oracle because she was popular as Oracle for going on 23 years now (2 years longer than she was Batgirl.  Huh.).  If nothing else, she stopped getting shunted over to comic book limbo every few years like she did in her Batgirl days.  If she wasn't, she would have been repaired and recaped long before now. 

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Tony Tower
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 3  

Well, it seemed like a possible way for DC to have their cake and eat it too. And some fans will be insulted by anything.

Anyway, the general notion first popped into my head not about wheelchair-bound Oracle but when I thought DC might be de-aging Dick Grayson back to Robin while also wanting to keep some sort of NIGHTWING title going. After first dismissing the possibility out of hand (big Nightwing fan here), I then had to admit that the post-CRISIS Huntress was a rather successful character despite being largely reinvented from the Earth-2 version. I liked Helena Wayne, certainly, but found Helena Bertinelli to be a fairly compelling and worthwhile character. So the idea shifted over from that into a way to "save" Oracle once it was clear Barbara Gordon was going back to being Batgirl. Since many of the changes seem to reflect what DC characters are known from other media (Batgirl Barbara, Cyborg in the JLA, etc), Chloe and the SMALLVILLE Watchtower leapt to mind.

[The apparent continuation of The Legion Of Robins - as much as I like three of them - makes me wonder exactly what form of reboot this will be, if any. ]


Edited by Tony Tower on 06 June 2011 at 7:49pm
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 4  

So looking over the new Batman line...  11 titles?  4 of which are solo Batman books?  Geez.  For all the complaints of "convoluted continuity" (which for so many seems to boil down to "I want new creative teams to ignore stories/changes I didn't like"), things don't really get convoluted until you do one or both of two things:  screw with old stories and/or have the same characters appearing in too many places.  The former means a new reader can't go through the backlist with any sense of structure because of the contradictions and the latter makes it more difficult to find the right place to just read Batman stories and easy to feel overwhelmed if you feel obligated to get all or none of them.

And now that they've killed the continuing numbering, I really have to question the point of continuing with Detective Comics (and Action, too, for that matter).  Without the high numbers, it's just yet another Batman book and they'd be better off giving it a "Batman" name so it doesn't get overlooked amongst the rest. 

(So I guess now I have to get #282-295 to earn Detective Comics' membership in my elite "600 club" (so elite, there aren't any members yet).  I was going back and forth with continuing post #881 or going back.  Nice of DC to simplify it for me. :-) )

For these books, I had been getting three of them:  Detective, Batgirl and Birds of Prey.  No interest in the new Detective (and the main reason I got it was liking Snyder's take on Dick Grayson so no plans to follow him to Batman).  I don't mind the character upheaval in Birds of Prey so much as I can't think of anytime I've heard good things about Duane Swierczynski's work (although to be fair his biggest project that I know about was a Cable series that wasn't allowed to go anywhere).  That might get a flip test.

Batgirl's in questionable territory.  I hate to support this book as it represents exactly what I hate about the whole relaunch - using the "cosmic reset" button to fix what wasn't broken in the first place and putting the managements childhood over the generations that have followed, despite the lack of any real creative need for the change.  Heck, everything Gail said about Barbara sounds chapter and verse what they were already doing with Stephanie Brown in the current Batgirl series.  So instead of two compelling characters, we're effectively down to one due to misplaced nostalgia.  Plus I think of this as demotion for Babs more than a restoration.  She goes from being one of the most truly unique characters in all of comics to just another superhero (heck, she's not even the only "female Batman" running around right now).  It's the return of Barry all over again. 

That said, if anyone can make me suck it up and buy the book anyway...  And much as I loved Babs as Batgirl, there really aren't that many particularly good stories with her in that role.  I wouldn't mind seeing some more.  I just wish it wasn't like this.

So I guess we're at two maybes at this point.  It is a shame to see two books I loved wholeheartedly (Simone's Birds of Prey and Miller's Batgirl) be replaced by two books I'm not all that enthused about, though. :-(

(Edited to add a bit more whining. :-) )



Edited by Dave Phelps on 06 June 2011 at 8:07pm
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 5  

Tony Tower:  "[The apparent continuation of The Legion Of Robins - as much as I like three of them - makes me wonder exactly what form of reboot this will be, if any. ]"

This one strikes me as a more widespread version of the post-Infinite Crisis "Earth-Cherry Picked."  (To borrow Newsarama's term.)  This isn't a "DC Year One" reboot, but rather a "DC Year Five," with some characters already in progress and others just making their debuts.  I get the impression some stories will be continuing as they had been going pre-Flashpoint, although the back story may be different (see Firestorm).  The characters Didio and company felt the strongest about "fixing" (see Batgirl and I suspect Superman and Lois are getting OMDed) get readjusted outright while others get reworked a bit. 

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 6  

 

Chang on Wonder Woman?  Doesn't work. 

Why doesn't Chiang work?? Is his work too credibly straightforward? I'd imagine people thought Chris Samnee on Thor comics wouldn't work, and that was a great comic.

 

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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 7  

Here is the article I was talking about--

Oracle is Stronger than Batgirl

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/oracle-is-stronger-than-batg irl-110606.html

*************************************

Ah, yes, nothing like good ol' fan entitlement!

I can only imagine some of the complaints that would be coming from fans if there was an internet at the end of CoIE, especially with JB's Superman.

"His parents are dead!  Not alive!! And he was Superboy, too!"

"Why is he so much weaker now???  He can move planets!  That's so dumb.  Fail, DC"

"The cape keeps getting torn!  It's super like him, it's not just a piece of cloth!"

"I want Krypto!  No Krypto, I'm not buying it!"

"Why does Lois have brown hair?  She's always had black hair.  That's so dumb to change that."

And so and so forth......

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Tony Tower
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 8  

There's a decent argument that restoring Barbara Gordon as Batgirl (and Barry Allen as the Flash and Hal Jordan as Green Lantern) is "fan entitlement," too. "I want it back the way it USED to be!" So I'm not sure there's any  'entitlement' monopoly on either side of this argument.

There's no objective right or wrong here - other than that DC can do whatever they want with the characters. I prefer Barbara as Oracle; others would rather have her back as Batgirl. The latter opinion is prevailing at the moment. Oracle fans had that character around longer (and for more stories) than Barbara-Batgirl fans did, so maybe it's time for the pendulum to swing back.
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | 9  

Oracle fans had that character around longer (and for more stories) than Barbara-Batgirl fans did, so maybe it's time for the pendulum to swing back.

****************************

Maybe for more stories, but not longer.  22 years for Batgirl, 22 for Oracle.  1 year she was just Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair.

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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | 10  

Still trying to figure out why there's a need for two red haired bat-
ladies...?
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Tony Tower
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Posted: 06 June 2011 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 11  

My mistake - one of the web articles discussing the change said she was Oracle longer and it sounded right so I didn't bother to double-check.


Edited by Tony Tower on 06 June 2011 at 9:30pm
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 07 June 2011 at 12:33am | IP Logged | 12  

I'm happy DC restored the one and true Batgirl.

Too many Robins. Argh. It was a good moment to reestablish Dick Grayson as the one true Robin, the BOY wonder.

George Pérez on Superman would be good. The man has been a DC top talent for 30 years now, so he deserved another milestone in his career. Hope this wll be confirmed.

The one hunderd Batman titles. They don't get it. They never get it. I liked Finch's series, but I'm not going to follow it again. Late releases first, now a different artist... no way I'm sticking with it.
Tony Daniel on 'tec? Can't believe this. Tony Daniel made me stop reading the main title after years! Detective Comics is (was) DC's oldest title, I hoped they could give it to one of their best creators. Surely not Daniel (who is a decent penciler, but as a writer... sigh).


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