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Chad Carter
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Posted: 15 November 2010 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | 1  

 

You know, there's a division between readers who read comic books for story, character, and the like, and readers who buy comic books to support superheroes. Or to put it another way, to support copyrighted -corporate superheroes.

To support obviously means to spend money on the comics.

I don't support superheroes. I read for story and art. I've (painfully) made concessions to support art, like Gabriel Hardman's, like Nicola Scott's, like Butch Guice's. But I never buy a superhero comic book for the superhero.

And I don't support horrible art. I think a bunch of people here and fans in general have a taste for sh*t. I mean godawful sh*t. Shameful sh*t.

You could have any great writer you can think of write a comic book, but the primal drive of the story has to come from the art. That's a hard and fast rule.

A lot of readers, all readers who say they support comic books, actually support superheroes and sh*tty art and tripe-filled stories. Yes, these things are mutually exclusive. It's a terrible realization. Those two things cannot exist in the same comic at the same time.

If you're supporting superheroes because you are a fan, because you have integrated the character within your wheelhouse of Likes, then you the reader are responsible for the product on the shelves right now.

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 15 November 2010 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 2  

 

There is an inappropriate division between what should be supported, story and art, and the corporate drive to make money from nostalgia.

And when I say "inappropriate", I don't mean in the PC way. I mean "not suitable." For the comic book, the format itself, and the way stories are told in that format, no one at Marvel/DC understands how to tell those stories, produce that art, or sell that kind of product.

All the douche-bags on the internet will proclaim that anyone who says what I say is saying I want comics to revert back 25 years ago.

I'm not saying any such thing. What I am saying is that there is a suitable way to approach stories and art in comic book form, and what Dick Giordano and Joe Orlando and Carmine Infantino and Denny O'Neill and Roy Thomas and Stan Lee did in their time of control was suitable to the product. They produced comic books, not superheroes. They sold stories, not failed movie scripts. They heralded solid, functional art over inappropriate division of labor.

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Felicity Walker
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 12:53am | IP Logged | 3  

I wouldn't mind if comics reverted back to 25 years ago. I love the '80s!

When you (Chad) say "support superheroes" do you mean the characters or the genre? I can understand someone being willing to buy every comic that stars their favourite character, though (like you) I wouldn't do that, if the art wasn't good enough.

(I collect by artist, and occasionally by writer--and even then the art has to be good. Using our host as an example, Byrne/Wagner on Genesis, Byrne/Romita and Byrne/Ryan on Iron Man, or Byrne/Ordway on Superman, will get me to part with my hard-earned money.)

But I've known people who will buy things if their favourite character is in it, even if the art isn't good enough. Is that what you mean, or do you mean supporting the superhero genre, no matter how bad it gets? If  people do the latter, I think it would be interesting to find out why. Superheroes are under fire these days for being too escapist and not artsy enough.
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Colin Clayton
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 1:15am | IP Logged | 4  

No - I joined up because it looked like a very interesting forum - a lot of very strong views.

But I am interested in what's specifically making JB angry.

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Wayne K Purdy
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 1:54am | IP Logged | 5  

Personally, I wish more pros were angry. I'd love to see some real change in the industry, restore comics what they used to be. The problem is that there are too many creators and not enough curators.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 2:18am | IP Logged | 6  

Was JB accusing Frank Miller of shitting on Eisner's memory, or was he accusing the cosplaying fan of it?

••

Both.

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 2:24am | IP Logged | 7  

I still think I should pitch my Shang-Chi, Master of Kung-Fu idea to M****l and Hollywood.

In it Shang-Chi is actually an African-American rapper (Shang-Chi being his rap name) who is also a black belt in kung fu, while Fu Manchu is actually a record producer who also happens to be an Islamic terrorist.

As for the current state of comics, I'm bitter AND pissed as a fan. I grew up reading comics and used to hope that if I ever had kids, they'd grow up reading comics, too. I don't have kids, but if I did, there's no way in hell I'd let them read anything put out  by M****l right now outside the "Adventures" book/line/whatever, and can think of a few non-Vertigo DC books I wouldn't let them near, either.

I shut down my comics subscriptions at the LCS back in June, for financial reasons (I'm unemployed and have medical issues). And I think it speaks volumes that the only book I was reading that I miss is an independant publisher title.



Edited by Brian Floyd on 16 November 2010 at 2:29am
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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 2:29am | IP Logged | 8  

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jackson, who's a comics reader, was initially pissed at having his likeness used for Nick Fury, but when he called his lawyers/agents, he found out that Marvel had shown interest in his playing Fury in some films.  It _kinda_ sounds like they "apologized" by giving him a job.  Weird.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 2:46am | IP Logged | 9  

Tony, I've heard Jackson tell that story himself on a talk show back around when the first Iron Man movie came out. (Pretty sure he said it was his agent who told him)

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Tony Midyett
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 3:06am | IP Logged | 10  

^ So I didn't dream the whole thing?  That's good!  :)
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 3:42am | IP Logged | 11  

Mr Byrne, just keep doing whatever you feel is right. I don't see it as bitterness. If you feel passionate enough about something that it makes you angry, and you need to express that anger honestly, then do so.

That's what the word "integrity" means; consistently being true to yourself and your own philosophy. Continue to point out the flaws and problems which are dragging comics into oblivion. Ignore the outcry from "fans". Fans - and people in general - are extremely fickle. They love you when you give them what they want, and denounce you loudly when you say what they don't want to hear.

Though I know the movie is not a favorite of yours, I'll quote a line from The Dark Knight: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain".

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Michael Cross
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Posted: 16 November 2010 at 4:48am | IP Logged | 12  

Thank the lord for Mike Mignola..he's making great character based comics
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