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Topic: Stephen Hawking, doing his part. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Wayde Murray
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 1  

What do you consider "dead" matter?  A carbon atom?  A simple carbon molecule?  A complex carbon molecule?  How complex?  Is an amino acid molecule "alive"?  Do you consider only those things that appear to have "purpose" be "alive"?

I use quotation marks because when comparing things that are alive to things that are not, it's not as cut and dry as you might expect.  At least not at the simplest levels.  A human being is definitely alive, a rock is definitely not,   A vurus, however, is not definitely alive.  Viruses can be crystalized and still recover from the process.  Viruses can be smashed "dead" and retain a degree of their infectious properties.

I liked Asimov's analogy: you look at a castle from a distance and it looks like a castle.  Get closer and you can see the individual bricks that make up the construction.  Disassemble the castle without damaging any of the blocks, and put all the blocks in a pile.  Where did the castle go?  One hundred percent of its materials are present, but the castle itself is gone.  The organization is missing, and that's enough to remove the castle from "life" even though nothing is "really" gone. 

A dead human body (assuming no obvious trauma) is exactly the same as a live human body except in some degree of organization we can't identify (at least not yet).  We can talk of "souls", which imply a level of complexity be added to "reality" if they exist (Heaven, Hell, ghosts, out-of-body experiences, etc), but we don't require some hidden quality of "castleness" to explain or describe the organization that went missing from our reverse-construction process earlier.  We don't think the castle exists in some hidden form and "remembers" that it used to be a castle.  The bricks that get reused in a future construction process don't have a memory of their prior configuration.  Why should the carbon, phosphorus, nitrogen, calcium etc atoms of your body or mine "remember" who they used to comprise? 

Life is a process.  It's a mystery only in that we haven't figured out the blueprints completely.  Science is about asking the questions that lead to better comprehension.  Faith is about providing pat answers that historically have slowed real progress in comprehension.  Too many people in too many societies have had to "unlearn" what had been considered Truths before they could discover what appears to be usable information. 

The real difference between science and faith?  Faith might work, prayer might work, hope might work.  When faith doesn't work it's taken as a failure in the person using it.  Science always works.  When science doesn't work it's taken as an indication that their is a problem in the theory being employed.  The theory gets studied and improved upon to learn why it failed in some fashion (typically at an exteme condition not normally encountered) and it then gets BETTER.   

Faith is as good as it's ever going to get.  Science is as good as our own understanding.  Choice seems obvious.

 

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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 2  

Again, you are looking at the Universe as it exists, and assuming that is the only possible form -- therefore there must be a Creator. But the Universe is merely what happened this time. Maybe this was the only time, maybe the latest in an infinite string of times that stretch off forever in all directions and dimensions.

After all, as far as we are concerned, this extraordinary unlikely thing only needs to have happened ONCE.

--

Could be JB.  But in this infinite string of possibilities would you leave room for the possibility of a God?  Or is that the only thing that COULDN'T happen?  What if you are right about realities popping in and out over an infinite amount of time, this mechanism for universe generation just IS and has always been, but this time around it became aware? 

I'm not claiming I know the truth or have all the answers, it's just fun to think about.




Edited by Thomas Woods on 04 September 2010 at 11:13am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 3  

But in this infinite string of possibilities would you leave room for the possibility of a God?

••

If you will tell me what created God.

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 4  

People really need to stop invoking the "I can't understand how" line of thought as a reason to believe a story from a time when people were even more ignorant than we are now.

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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 5  

 

If the Universe can create itself out of nothing couldn't God create himself from nothing?

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 6  

If the universe can create itself out of nothing, then what the fuck do we need God for?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 7  

If the universe can create itself out of nothing, then what the fuck do we need God for?

••

That's what Hawking said -- somewhat more politely. (He IS British, ahfter all!)

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 8  

More politely, and with considerably more heft - although I have taken to joking that it's nice to see Stephen Hawking has finally caught up with me!

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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 9  

If the universe can create itself out of nothing, then what the fuck do we need God for?

 

Then let me reword it (why can I never convey what I mean when I post to this board...<sigh>). If that's a plausible origin to believe for the universe why isn't that a plausible origin to believe for God? Obviously believers of each aren't going to believe both.

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 10  

But in this infinite string of possibilities would you leave room for the possibility of a God?

**************

SER: The Bible as written also does not give evidence that if there is a God that he isn't just an advanced life form -- more advanced than us, maybe even responsible for us, perhaps he knocked off the dinosaurs -- who gets his jollies off having human "pets."
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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | 11  

The problems with believing in God are legion.  But just as a starter - given the accumulated knowledge of Humanity, why should something that seems largely borne out of mistaken speculation about the world from a time when we knew so much less somehow manage to STILL be the truth about the world we live in?  It's like we got the original premise RIGHT, then spent centuries spinning off bullshit from the original premise, then found the original premise was still right even though scads of incorrect, debunked thinking sprang from it?
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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 12  

speculation about the world from a time when we knew so much less 

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

 

Well even though we know more now, we still don't know everything and as long as there is "The Unknown" that will leave enough room for people to give that unknown in the universe a name (so to speak) and call it God.

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