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Topic: Stephen Hawking, doing his part. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 8:21am | IP Logged | 1  

"Case in point...my dingbat brother-in-law jokingly kept telling his kids that Santa was Jesus' uncle. That sounded cute, but when the time came to reveal that Santa was a myth, the kids had a hard time decoupling Santa from Jesus."

Sounds like a great way to make kids understand Jesus is a myth.

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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 2  

JB,

My doubt doesn't hinge on the importance of man. With the line "Man being the end result of this code can't even come close to creating something as complex on their own" I was only trying to point out that we are the most intelligent result (that we know of) of this code that formed, and our most sophisticated creations are not nearly as complex. 
The code could have ended with cows, or insects for all I care. Or on a completely different world in a different way.  

The moment when the code formed in the first place is where my doubt is.  Flat dead matter forming a code that would develop complex systems for replication, self repair, perception, consciousness, etc. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 3  

When a child comes of the age when its time for the myth of Santa to be revealed, I would recon that any child that cannot distinguish the difference between Jesus and Santa were taught a disservice in their religious upbringing. I don't think we really need to go into detail to compare and contrast the teachings of Jesus and stories about Santa.

••

Most children are told the truth about Santa, if they have not already deduced it for themselves, before they are old enough to distinguish significant differences better the Jolly Old Elf and the Son of God.

Perhaps if they were not, perhaps if they were encouraged to continue to believe in Santa long after the stories made any further sense to them, those same children would have a better chance of determining for themselves how preposterous BOTH characters really are.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 4  

My doubt doesn't hinge on the importance of man. With the line "Man being the end result of this code can't even come close to creating something as complex on their own" I was only trying to point out that we are the most intelligent result (that we know of) of this code that formed, and our most sophisticated creations are not nearly as complex.

••

So -- correct me if I am misunderstanding this -- your proof of a Creator lies in the fact that we, as humans, have not equalled his creation?

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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 5  

So -- correct me if I am misunderstanding this -- your proof of a Creator lies in the fact that we, as humans, have not equalled his creation?

--

I don't have proof of anything.  No, my point in that one line was dead matter created a code more complex than man's best computer codes, even at its earliest stage. 






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Don Zomberg
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 6  

A code that took billions of years to reach that complexity. Computers haven't been around quite that long yet.
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Don Zomberg
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 7  

I'm still failing to grasp how someone can say, "I don't understand how this happened--therefore, God did it." A being that no one has ever seen using some method beyond our understanding created everything? How is that an explanation? Using a mystery to explain a mystery?

If complexity requires a creator, then the creator itself must also then require a creator, and so on and so on.

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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 8  

A code that took billions of years to reach that complexity. Computers haven't been around quite that long yet.

-- 

It would be interesting to see the results a billion years from now. But the computer code a billion years from now hopefully will still know who created it.  

But billions of years or not, my overall point still rests on day one of the code, and if dead matter could form an information code.


Edited by Thomas Woods on 04 September 2010 at 10:12am
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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 9  

I like the idea of a higher power but I can't understand the level that people let that belief "Take the wheel" of their life.

 

Is it really that hard to understand? People want to belong to the group, religions are some of the biggest most popular groups. You don't join a group and tell them they all have to change to suit your different view of things, it's much easier to exclude you from the group. "God" is cited as the reason but really it's just group mentality. Is it any wonder those considered "evil" by religions also just happen to be the natural minority in populations, and their solution for them to be "good" is to change to fit the majority. Christianity is weird in that Jesus spends the majority of the New Testament telling people it's OK to accept "sinners" (those on the fringes of Jewish society, and following him will make them a fringe group too) and many Christians (once they were the majority) just reverted to excluding people again. It seems almost ingrained in us to exclude people who don't want to be like "us". (just go through some threads on this forum)

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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:27am | IP Logged | 10  

If complexity requires a creator, then the creator itself must also then require a creator, and so on and so on.

--

I don't have an answer for that, other than the same old ones you have already heard a million times. I can only guess that God would be a force of all things, through all things, and all dimensions.

One day we will die and know, or not know.  It just takes more faith  for me to believe that non-life created life, no intelligence created intelligence, etc. Than to believe there is a reason behind it all.

 


Edited by Thomas Woods on 04 September 2010 at 10:28am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 11  

But billions of years or not, my overall point still rests on day one of the code, and if dead matter could form an information code.

••

Why should it NOT form an information code?

Again, you are looking at the Universe as it exists, and assuming that is the only possible form -- therefore there must be a Creator. But the Universe is merely what happened this time. Maybe this was the only time, maybe the latest in an infinite string of times that stretch off forever in all directions and dimensions.

After all, as far as we are concerned, this extraordinary unlikely thing only needs to have happened ONCE.

In the end, God is about ego -- human ego. We need God to give us importance in the Universe. Here we are, little lumps of protoplasm swimming around in a biological film that happens to coat a lump of rock circling a particularly unprepossessing star in a galaxy that is not at all special, in a Universe filled with (at least) hundreds of billions of such galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars. It's like the ultimate punishment device in THE HITCHHIKERS GUIDE TO THE GALAXY -- a booth into which the victim is placed, and within which s/he is made instantly aware of the full scope of the cosmos, whereupon an infinitesimally small DOT appears, with the marker YOU ARE HERE.

God makes us IMPORTANT. God makes us actually what the whole Universe is ABOUT. We invent God to give us a sense of importance, and then some of us seize the concept to give themselves an even GREATER sense of importance. They make themselves priests and rabbis and other such keepers of the faith. And every once in a while they grab some big swords and go out and slaughter the people who are keeping the WRONG faith. Or they get slaughtered themselves, which serves only to convince the wrong thinkers that they are RIGHT thinkers.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 September 2010 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 12  

One day we will die and know, or not know. It just takes more faith for me to believe that non-life created life, no intelligence created intelligence, etc. Than to believe there is a reason behind it all.

••

It takes more faith to believe what has been shown to be true, than to believe fairy tales. Incredible!

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