Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 18 Next >>
Topic: Stephen Hawking, doing his part. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Bill Cox
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 November 2004
Posts: 213
Posted: 03 September 2010 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 1  

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and Heaven but maintains that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist – yet they do not embrace true atheism. Perhaps you meant "gnostic?"

No, I meant agnostic as these theories do not outright deny God, but rather discount His involvement -- thus leaving His very existence questioned.

Back to Top profile | search
 
James Revilla
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2266
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 2  

I like that concept of the curve JB, would be interesting if we were just a universe in a bottle. Or a cell in a larger part.

I don't see why "nothing" in this case can't stand for "nothing we understand yet". Would be so much eaier to stop pointless debates. I am not talking about this thread either in case someone takes offense.

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Andrew Casamurata
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: Italy
Posts: 73
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 4:20am | IP Logged | 3  

> And who's to say that science and belief cannot go hand in hand?

I do. Scientific Galilean method (Science) does.

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134178
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 4  

Its called "faith" because its belief in something that cant be proven. And for those who don't understand this concept, please belay all those comments about the Easter Bunny, Santa and the Tooth Fairy -- it really makes you sound quite silly!

••

I really wish "believers" could step back and take a truly hard, objective look at their "faith". Block for a moment all the lifelong brainwashing and indoctrination, and ask themselves if, encountering these fairy tales for the first time as an adult, with an adult's understanding, they would really embrace them.

I invoke once again the comparison I have made before between Jesus and Santa Claus. Two supernatural beings, associated with the same holiday, their lives and adventures taught to us by the same authority figures, each presented with the absolute assurance of reality -- until a day comes when we are expected to abandon one, to utterly reject his "reality", as a mark of maturity. Yet which one is it we are asked to abandon? The one we have actually MET.

Comparing religious faith to belief in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy in no way makes those who make the comparison sound "silly". It points up the delusional nature of those who have chosen to embrace concepts with no more grounding in reality than those tales from our childhood. Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Great Pumpkin, God -- all cut from the same cloth, the cloth of human imagination.

Back to Top profile | search
 
James Revilla
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2266
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 5:04am | IP Logged | 5  

Faith is nice and all but does anyone ever walk off a ledge with "faith" they won't fall?

And I mean a real ledge, not a metaphorical one.

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134178
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 5:11am | IP Logged | 6  

What I have a hard time believing is that water, sunlight, and "whatever other" non living matter combined and developed a code. These elements, not God, breathed life into themselves and formed a code (Man being the end result of this code can't even come close to creating something as complex on their own). And then these elements, or the newly formed code, had the "urge" not only to stay alive, but to multiply its code. Not only to multiply, but to improve on itself. Not only to just BE, but to develop ways to sense, to see, to hear the universe these elements sprang from.

These elements that were just matter... had no intellect, no reason, no senses, no meaning for being ... reversed all of that the instant the code was formed. The code would develop everything the elements didn't have before: intelligence, reason, perception of its surroundings, the need to survive, the need to multiply.

And beyond that, the elements that formed a code over time would come to think there is a God, or at lest some of the code thinks so!

••

You would take a great step forward toward reason and away from delusion if you would first abandon this notion that Man is the "end result" of the natural processes of the Universe.

Having shed that homocentric view of reality, you might then be able to begin to grasp the fact that natural laws as we perceive them are merely what happened here, at a particular time in a particular place, and that under even slightly different circumstances, an entirely different set of such laws would have sprung into existence, doubtless leading to beings very different from us, some of whom would nonetheless be absolutely convinced that their particular set of laws had been specially engineered for them.

I return to a simple illustration I have used many times before. In fourth grade our teacher was telling us about the way plants reproduced themselves with seeds. She used an apple as an example, showing us how the apple provided a food source for the seeds it carried at its core, but that also, because the apple tasted good, animals (including Man) would come along and pick the apple, eat the good part, and then toss away (or excrete, tho she skipped that part!) the core and seeds. Thus the seeds would be dropped a distance further from the tree than simply rolling could accomplish, and the apple would propagate itself over a wide region. "So," she said, "the apple tastes good so that we will eat it."

I carried that simply turn of phrase in my head for a long, long time. "The apple tastes good so that we will eat it." And then one day, logic and reason kicked in, and I realized this was a classic example of what I have come to call "looking thru the wrong end of the telescope". The apple does not taste good so that we will eat it, we eat it because it tastes good. For the apple, as for the Universe as a whole, there is no "so that". Nothing happens with any purpose, least of all to create a world that will be hospitable to Man. (In reality, less than 2% of the Earth's surface is actually hospitable to our species, without us making special adaptations. Hardly a good example of us being the "end result" of any sort of deliberate process.)

We look at the Universe, and because we are in it, it seems engineered to meet to our needs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134178
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 5:13am | IP Logged | 7  

Faith is nice and all but does anyone ever walk off a ledge with "faith" they won't fall?

And I mean a real ledge, not a metaphorical one.

••

Substitute flying saucers and Kool-Aid for that ledge, and sadly the answer is yes. And the result is always the same: dead believers.

As Bertrand Russell so aptly expressed it, faith is never invoked when there is evidence. We do not have "faith" that 1 + 1 = 2.

Back to Top profile | search
 
James Revilla
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2266
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 5:17am | IP Logged | 8  

I like the idea of a higher power but I can't understand the level that people let that belief "Take the wheel" of their life.

"I don't hate homosexuals the Bible does."
"The Bible tells me that life starts at conception."

If you were going to believe even 1% of what is "god's word" wouldn't you put free will and the ability to think for yourself above anything written in Leviticus?

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 9  

...it seems engineered to meet our needs.

Another example of believers claiming both sides of the coin. They claim the world is designed intelligently for human comfort. When someone points out natural disasters, disease, droughts, and man-eating animals, believers fall back on Original Sin to explain why the world is such a harsh, cruel place.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Cox
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 November 2004
Posts: 213
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 10  

I invoke once again the comparison I have made before between Jesus and Santa Claus. Two supernatural beings, associated with the same holiday, their lives and adventures taught to us by the same authority figures, each presented with the absolute assurance of reality -- until a day comes when we are expected to abandon one, to utterly reject his "reality", as a mark of maturity. Yet which one is it we are asked to abandon? The one we have actually MET.

When a child comes of the age when its time for the myth of Santa to be revealed, I would recon that any child that cannot distinguish the difference between Jesus and Santa were taught a disservice in their religious upbringing. I don't think we really need to go into detail to compare and contrast the teachings of Jesus and stories about Santa.

Case in point...my dingbat brother-in-law jokingly kept telling his kids that Santa was Jesus' uncle. That sounded cute, but when the time came to reveal that Santa was a myth, the kids had a hard time decoupling Santa from Jesus. Granted that religion was not an important factor in their lives, they didn't know too much about the teachings of Jesus and could not tell the difference between Christ and Santa. These kids were victims of poor religious upbringing - blame goes to the parents.

I suspect that similar scenarios have turned off a lot of Christians-in-Name-Only and this leads to their children's rather critical and cynical views of those stupid enough to believe.

 



Edited by Bill Cox on 04 September 2010 at 8:03am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 11  

...it really makes you sound quite silly!

As opposed to folks who believe that a Jewish virgin gave birth to a man-god 2000 years ago? Or that prayer works? Or that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to Church?

Only in a world as absurd as this one could so many see Noah's Ark as historical fact while dismissing evolution as "kooky talk."

Back to Top profile | search
 
Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
Posted: 04 September 2010 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 12  

...child that cannot distinguish the difference between Jesus and Santa...

But that's the point--they can distinguish the differences but not the similarities. Society tells children at a certain point that one mythological figure associated with Christmas and miracle works isn't real, but that the other is.



Edited by Don Zomberg on 04 September 2010 at 8:14am
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 18 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login