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Topic: Stephen Hawking, doing his part. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 06 September 2010 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 1  

 Wayde Murray wrote:
Spirituality only affects you. Religion affects me, whether I want it to or not. And while I can't disprove your spirituality (assuming I would want to) I can disprove the validity of religions without much effort.

I have to agree with these statements. Ultimately, whether there is a higher purpose to our existence, a grand design, some form of sentient-derived order to the universe is actually irrelevant to our daily lives because we currently have no information beyond our own genetic predispositions on what we should do to follow this purpose.

Where the danger lies is when certain people - for various reasons - come up with their own interpretations of this purpose. Essentially, religion is mankind's laughably simplistic attempt at understanding the universe and our place in it, and has caused far more harm than good. Any good that has come out of religion was already there before religion came along. People already knew and made basic codes of social conduct well before the Ten Commandments.

So while we may debate whether or not there is a higher power, a creator, or some sentient driving force to the universe, the imperative at the moment is to debunk and eventually remove the blight of religion. In that sense, what Hawking is doing is entirely beneficial.

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Jeremiah Avery
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Posted: 06 September 2010 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 2  

Here's an interesting quote from Thomas Jefferson: "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 07 September 2010 at 4:50am | IP Logged | 3  

Ultimately, whether there is a higher purpose to our existence, a grand design, some form of sentient-derived order to the universe is actually irrelevant to our daily lives because we currently have no information beyond our own genetic predispositions on what we should do to follow this purpose.

****

I still don't understand what you mean, Koroush. First you leave open whether nature has a purpose as apparently only a possibility (although you have not yet said to what degree it is plausible) , but then you go on to say that humans are genetically predisposed to try to follow this purpose -- as if the purpose surely exists. Nevertheless, if you only mean that humans seem predisposed to devise purpose whether it exists or not, with that I can agree. 

But that doesn't appear to be the case because earlier you stated (without explanation, without source) that it is a fact that there is evidence of order and purpose in nature down to the minutest level. I suppose, therefore, that you are saying that humans are genetically predisposed -- we know not why? -- to be attuned to that extant natural purpose -- of which we know not except its existence? -- but what happens is that whatever the purpose may be humanity has as yet only been able to "interpret" it through a distorted, limited, even morally bankrupt form, i.e., religion. I'm not going to argue in favor of the virtues of religion. But, as I've asked before, where do you find evidence of a purpose to creation, of natural intent, and where do you find evidence that human beings have some "thing" built into our DNA that drives us to suss out albeit imperfectly what nature intends? Can you please share with us the sources you're basing this upon?

(These are sincere questions, not a set up for reflexive gainsaying or a cheap punchline.)
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 07 September 2010 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | 4  

Let me answer your question with a question Michael. Why do we human beings have the innate urge to reproduce? Why should we reproduce ourselves, why should we continue the species? Why continue to exist, indeed what is the purpose of existence?

If the scientific answer to this is: "Just because", and the religious answer to this question is: "It's God's will" then both answers are unsatisfactorily vague.

Therefore there is room for a middle ground which says that the answer to existence may be "for the sake of X, Y or Z". In other words, existence may be for a purpose, whatever that purpose may be. It is not proof of a purpose, but it is a plausible theory, a viable alternative.

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 07 September 2010 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 5  

Why continue to exist, indeed what is the purpose of existence?

---------

Look at it this way - it's your DNA that takes you for a walk, not vice versa.

Reproduction is the very definition of life itself.  The purpose of existence is to reproduce.  That's it.  Everything else is gravy.  We are traveling in the wake of a single molecule billions of years ago that started an insane pattern of reproducing itself, simply because by reproducing itself, it continued to exist.  We're like a fire that has burned for eons and burned through ice ages, a continuous chemical reaction that has never stopped since that moment.

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Matthew Chartrand
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Posted: 07 September 2010 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 6  

 

 These paragraphs were written by Issac Asimov in 1976. I wonder if they were met with as much controversy. I suppose not, in the pre-internet age.

 

 "Genes, after having been originally formed purely by chance, are then selected by blind environmental forces into a better and better fit, until after three billion years, an organism as complex and versatile as Homo sapiens exists. Very likely, a species equally remarkable would have been molded by three billion years of natural selection no matter what genes had been formed in the beginning by the workings of sheer chance.

 Nowhere in the entire process can I see any point where the blind laws of nature definitely break down and where we are left with no alternative but to call upon God.

 Naturally, there is nothing in the argument to prove that there is no God, either. Even if we were to demonstrate that, as far as we know, God is unnecessary, we have not disproven God's existence. God may be necessary at some point that we haven't properly understood, or haven't even considered. For that matter, God may exist even if there is no necessity for that existence.

 However, it is a respected principle of argument that the burden of proof is upon the positive.

 Therefore, if asked whether I believe in God, I suppose, I must reply that as soon as incontrovertible evidence for God's existence is presented to me, I will accept it."

      -Isaac Asimov, The Planet that Wasn't 1976

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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 07 September 2010 at 10:23pm | IP Logged | 7  

Let me answer your question with a question Michael. Why do we human beings have the innate urge to reproduce? Why should we reproduce ourselves, why should we continue the species? Why continue to exist, indeed what is the purpose of existence?

 

Because we choose to. haha, anyone know that quote?

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 08 September 2010 at 4:46am | IP Logged | 8  

>>Why do we human beings have the innate urge to reproduce? Why should we reproduce ourselves, why should we continue the species? Why continue to exist, indeed what is the purpose of existence?If the scientific answer to this is: "Just because", and the religious answer to this question is: "It's God's will" then both answers are unsatisfactorily vague. Therefore there is room for a middle ground which says that the answer to existence may be "for the sake of X, Y or Z". In other words, existence may be for a purpose,...<<

Thanks for responding, Koroush.

My opinion is that no scientist could ever offer "just because" as a theory addressing a hypothesis. If a scientist doesn't yet know, she must say so. If she pretends to know or if she closes the door to potentially knowing, at that moment she stops being a scientist. In any event, if this question of the drive for humans to reproduce is a special case, have you read literature you can share with us on the subject that demonstrates the scientific community have indeed thrown up their hands and stopped investigating, or are you only assuming that scientists have here stopped at "just because" in order to assert "a middle ground" that is neither scientific nor religious but (and I'm not sure what you mean it to be) something else?

I'm also not sure if you are defining a problem with science itself or with what scientists do. 

You might be saying that the endeavor of science overall is of ultimately limited value because its self-defined methods do not admit of a scope that can encompass this particular question of the "purpose" of existence. In that case, the notion of nature's intent is a non-scientific hypothesis. Perhaps as such it is purely a matter of philosophic (i.e., non-scientific and non-religious, a middle ground[?]) speculation. I can go along with that. But if that's the case, existence having a purpose cannot be asserted as a "plausible theory, a viable alternative" to all scientific study that has thus far completely eliminated the need for such an alternative theory. In short, while purpose/intent in nature may be philosophically plausible, it is scientifically pointless.

Now, you might otherwise be saying that scientists have wrongly discounted the possibility that existence has a purpose, that nature has an intent, because this question can be formulated as a true scientific hypothesis subject to critical examination through strict scientific methods -- even if no theory as yet satisfies the hypothesis, scientists should not abandon it. If that's your position, I can't completely agree. Much of the work in the sciences over the past four thousand years has been to continually test the notion that there is an intent in nature, a purpose that typically has been presumed to be anthropocentric, and many of the greatest steps forward have taken place precisely when scientists offered wholly non-purposeful theories as explanations for observable phenomena. I don't believe a scientist should close her mind to any possibility, including that of perhaps one day discovering a purpose to existence, an intent in nature. But I also believe that scientists, driven (by choice or even by force) by the deeply religious and philosophical milieux in which they found themselves, have in fact been hunting for that fruitlessly for many millennia. What they have discovered is that the less purpose or intent were posited to describe nature, the more nature has been understood.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 08 September 2010 at 5:39am | IP Logged | 9  

On the matter of why creatures feel "compelled" to reproduce -- once again it is necessary to avoid looking thru the wrong end of the telescope, ie, looking at the finished product and trying to deduce causal relations from that end of the equation.

Instead, we must look at the beginning of the process, back when the earliest forms of life appeared in Earth's oceans. (Technically, not life at all. The first "reproducing" entity to appear was simple forms of DNA. Life came along later, as a kind of "biological armor" that DNA evolved to protect itself from the harsh environment.) Obviously, the forms that survived were the ones that reproduced themselves. No reproduction = no survival. Thus, life forms are "compelled" to reproduce because the ones that didn't did not pass this inclination on to any of their decendents -- they didn't have any!

It's like the old joke: Statistics show that if your parents didn't have any children, you won't either.

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Don Zomberg
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Posted: 08 September 2010 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 10  

existence may be for a purpose.

There is no Grand Purpose to life--there is only the meaning which we give it. I read, I write, I go for bike rides, watch movies, study Taekwondo. Why does none of it have a "purpose" unless I bow down to an invisible tyrant in the sky?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 08 September 2010 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 11  

The Existential Dilemma: We're alone in the Universe, life has no meaning, death is inevitable.

Personally, I find it quite liberating!!

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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 08 September 2010 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 12  

Same here.
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