Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 18 Next >>
Topic: Stephen Hawking, doing his part. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Thomas Woods
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1356
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 1  

Wayde, just my nerdy brain wondering what other things could be conjured from the universe's chemistry set. Something beyond life if that can even be imagined.

For example: Crazy theory #245 --- what if in the 11th dimension life was formed and is much like we would call a spirit world.  These "spirits" were able to detect the 3rd dimension.  Being bored with their existence and immortality, they craved something with a little more danger in it, some entertainment.  So they decided to express themselves in this 3rd dimension and life was that vehicle.  Coming to this world for them is much like us playing an MMO game.  They block any knowledge of their real existence and immortality. When they enter the game, they have emotions that they either never had, or long outgrew. Now everything is new to them again.  Once they die in this game, they wake up and remember not only their true selves, but the entire game life.  They can choose to go back into the game again if they like.

(Edit:  This is also a big war game where team B, about 500 light years from here, will be invading earth in about 2000 years. For the immortals, this is no time at all.)

Sounds crazy I know, but think if the human race ever reached immortality through science.  I could see us easily coming up with a holodeck type escape so that we could have a sense of danger and excitement again.


Edited by Thomas Woods on 06 September 2010 at 4:15pm
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 2  

I think most, even if they couldn't articulate it, feel that it's 
dangerous not to.

After those of the type I've already talked about (there's only a certain number of times one can repeat the phrase "vicious, stupid and mad" without risking sounding a bit obsessed oneself), I was struck by the frequency with which believers posted the familiar Cartesian argument, that there's nothing to lose by believing if it's untrue, and everything by not believing if it's true. Whether this is one's own foundation for faith, or an argument one thinks might be effective with non-believers, surely it's going to be pretty useless when meeting the Creator? "So, keeping in mind that I know all, please explain how you calculated that you loved Me."*

IMP.

*It was in the introduction to a Gideon Bible that I learned that the business of capitalising the divine pronoun was a translators' introduction, not present in the original. The Gideons also distinguished between "lord" and "Lord", using the latter when the original referred to God as specifically a Jewish military commander. That's that God of love, again.

On the subject of capitals, I wonder whether the tendency of the religious (see Yahoo) to use CAPITALS in an ECCENTRIC and illiterate way, when surely they can see that they're the only ones doing it, is because they read the Bible and observe that it has its own rules, without understanding those rules. All they grasp is that if you're holy, you use CAPITALS In Strange Places.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | 3  

could you look long enough and far enough in space and eventually find a watch (or any other machine) that formed by mistake

Obviously "mistake" isn't really the word you mean (nobody suggests that the creation of the universe was a "whoops!" moment), but for a far more complex machine than a wristwatch, you don't have to look further than yourself: as complex as you like, and according to all the evidence, developed over a gigantic period of time without conscious design.

IMP.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 4  

Well, on the other hand Wayde, we are the only thing we've found so far that is intelligent by our standards.  As much as we are fascinated by the real intelligence in the animal community, we haven't found one yet that we can have a conversation with, or even play a decent game of chess.

Add to that the basic selfishness of looking out for, being interested in the doings of, and enjoying the company of, my own species; I find both of those plenty of reason to _personally_ treat humans as special.

On the whole, as a human being, I agree with you. Philosophically, though, this argument is deeply wrapped in human-centric bias. A daffodil might think of daffodils as the only things so far as rich in the qualities of being daffodils as daffodils are, if daffodils thought that way (or at all). In fact, it might be that one of the qualities of daffodils is not to make that kind of comparison, or to value specialness, or to value giving things value. We value intelligence because we have it, while a giraffe might value long necks, and hold giraffes special because they have them and the rest of us don't. We might be right to value intelligence if intelligence has some objective value; if, on the other hand, leaving as small a footprint on our local part of the universe as possible is the thing of real value, whoops.

Personally, I can't imagine what might be special objectively. Special to whom? For what? Objectively, I think, nothing we value matters. It all just is; we all just are.

IMP.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike Sweeney
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 5  

Well, if just from the life-centric point of view, humanity is still an intriguing life form.  A macro-fauna (although size is not necessarily importance), a fairly developed one (in some directions; aka mammalian, tetrapod, chordate, etc.), and one that has had (from some perspectives) a large visual effect on surface features of this planet (some perspectives, because plants, and before that, cyanobacteria, much more massively changed the face of this world).

We also are one of a small number of species that have made it off this planet.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134181
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 6  

On the matter of animal intelligence---

A few million years ago, our ancestors came down from the trees and moved out into a very different and in many ways more hostile environment. That environment encouraged them to become bipedal -- tho only very minor changes were made to accomplish this, which is why humans suffer from lower back pains while gorillas don't -- and becoming bipedal made it possible for our ancestors front paws to develop into really amazing tools, almost unmatched in the Animal Kingdom. Those fancy new tools required a fancier brain, and to accomplish this the brain got much larger -- tho the birth canal did not enlarge to deal with this gigantic new head, which is why human females go thru agonizing labor pains, while female gorillas don't.

Anyway, with that new big brain came a whole lot of superfluous circuitry that contributed not one whit to human survival, but did eventually give us places where we could develop things like art and science and literature and music and religion -- none of which animals other than us have much use for. Which is fine, since they didn't evolve those parts of the brain. Didn't need 'em.

So, remember, animals are not necessarily dumb because they don't talk or play chess. They just have other things to worry about.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | 7  

Thomas wrote:

Something beyond life if that can even be imagined.

**

Sure, that sort of thing is possible, and there have been thousands of good and bad SF written based on that or similar premises.  They can be very entertaining as fiction.  Why human societies would want to arrange Sunday activities around these fictions becomes the obvious next question. 

Is there life superior to us?  Absolutely.  Find yourself alone in the middle of the ocean and there's going to be no shortage of life that's superior to you.  Try to convince the shark that you're at the top of the food chain and watch him smile at you.  We don't have to invent lifeforms (or beyond-lifeforms) to feel inferior.  As a species we've got no natural predators big enough for us to see without  a microscope.  But as individuals we'd be hard pressed to take on a racoon empty-handed. 

I've got no beef with a person's spirituality.  Whatever relationship a person might have with their own version of a higher power is generally harmless unless the person is psychotic.  It's when a million or a billion people get together and start posting rules that everyone has to abide by that I start to get annoyed.  Spirituality only affects you.  Religion affects me, whether I want it to or not.  And while I can't disprove your spirituality (assuming I would want to) I can disprove the validity of religions without much effort.

 

Back to Top profile | search
 
William McCormick
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 8  

The thing that makes me feel creation IS a possibility is that life, the genetic code, exists. I find it hard to believe that dirt gave itself a soul, a replicating code, that would lead to organic machines with no maker.

**************

So what created the creator? Why is it so hard to believe that we sprang from nothing, but you're willing to believe that whatever created us did the very same thing?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18175
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 9  

Whatever relationship a person might have with their own version of a higher power is generally harmless unless the person is psychotic. 

---------

Or if your baby needs blood to live and you're a perfectly normal, observant Jehovah's Witness.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 10  

Which fits my definition of psychotic.  You have abandoned generally accepted reality in favor of a harmful delusion. 

 

edit to add qualification for "reality"



Edited by Wayde Murray on 06 September 2010 at 5:37pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18175
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 11  

Then the psychotics have us vastly outnumbered.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
Posted: 06 September 2010 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 12  

And they always have and always will.  Consider that one of the cornerstones of Christian belief is that God imbued us with free will, then made it a sin to employ free will when applied to God himself according to the First Commandment.

Doesn't get much more fuctup that that.

 

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 18 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login