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Topic: NEXT MEN is Back!!! (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 26 November 2010 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 1  

Looking forward to the new series!  I picked up the Compleat Next Men volume two a couple of weeks ago and read through all 30 issues (plus 2112) over the course of a couple of days.  I feel bad for everyone who had to wait 15 years to see the continuation--it's only going to be about a month for me, and that feels like a long wait!


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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 26 November 2010 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 2  

I picked up the Compleat Next Men volume two a couple of weeks ago and
read through all 30 issues...
---
31? <insert smiley emoticon here>
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Francis Grey
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Posted: 26 November 2010 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 3  

So what was the deal with Thomas Kirkland?   "I've come back through time to make sure the Next Men don't kill President Hilltop, and in order to stop them, I've got this huge bomb strapped to myself!"  Huh?   

Clearly Kirkland was telling some fibs about why he was there.   And he knew that Hilltop and Sathanas were the same person due to the DNA comparison he was talking about.   So, basically, he was trying to kill Sathanas and prevent the future evils of 2112?

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 26 November 2010 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 4  

There's one BIG thing that JB hasn't revealed to us, namely what iteration of the time loop we are seeing in the pages of 2112 and JBNM.  It's definitely not the first run through since we see the results of Sathanas' tampering with the past.  Is there a virgin timeline where Project Next Men (or a similar introduction of the rogue trigger gene) happened without any influence from Sathanas, but ultimately led to the same (or similar) events occurring in 2112?  Strangely, Sathanas doesn't act like he knows that his time travel gambit will work (if that was actually what he was trying to do).  When he emerges in 1955 he seems genuinely surprised.  A clue, perhaps?

The other possibility is that there is no 'first' or 'nth' iteration.  It is what it is -- time in this particular universe is absolute.  Sathanas and Thomas Kirkland always traveled back in time and always acted in the same ways.  History cannot be changed.  2112 represents the beginning and the end of this story.  Q.E.D.

(JB has dropped some hints in the past that it's the latter possibility.  However, 15 years later this may have changed.)


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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 5:43am | IP Logged | 5  

History cannot be changed.

••

Can't it?

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Pedro Cruz
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 6  

I too used to think time was immutable on the Next Men world, but then I re-read the story so far and came to a different conclusion.

Thomas Kirkland told Jane Bowman that, according to the science from 2115, any change on time would require a force from outside the natural stream but that he was going to try to change it anyway. Later, he told the Next Men that his contemporary scientists swore up and down that time was immutable until they found out a trans-temporal wave effect that might indicate a possible alteration of the time stream.

So basically, my interpretation is that just because Kirkland apparently wasn’t successful on his mission doesn’t mean time can’t be changed in the world of Next Men. There's always that "force from outside the natural time stream" to consider and also the "trans-temporal wave effect", whatever those things might be. 

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Joss Wierzbicki
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 7  

I think if Kirkland DID change anything then that means the 2112 graphic novel has become obsolete. And it's too great a GN to become obsolete!
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 9:33am | IP Logged | 8  

Then there's Sathanas' armor. 

From his point of view it always appears to have existed.  The remains of the recently triggered Hilltop are always placed in it.  Sathanas disappears at some point for the better part of a century and then reappears a few years before the events depicted in 2112.  At the conclusion of 2112 he detonates his explosives and what remains of the armor travels back to 1955.

The armor is an anomaly.  It's not even coexisting with a temporal duplicate (unless you count Hilltop and Sathanas speaking to each other in the same room).  The original information about where the armor came from is lost, possibly from it's own use as a means to time travel.  A similar type of informational loss is theorized to happen when matter is sucked into black holes -- the original subatomic components of what was sucked in are converted to energy but it's impossible to figure out what the matter was originally composed of.  The origin and original context are lost.

There's one other key point here:  Sathanas' meddling in the past seems to be steering things towards a future that he knows he failed in.  He even takes joy in watching that history unfold.  It may be that he is able to remember things from previous iterations of the loop, knows he can't change anything and is just enjoying the ride.  Or maybe an egocentric personality such as Sathanas sees a greater role in being the fulfiller of history rather than as the antithesis of it.  Or, perhaps he is compelled to fulfill that history by outside forces. ;-)

An interesting twist to this whole thing -- JB has said that originally Sathanas was not Hilltop.

JB, forgive my speculating on this stuff, it's been rolling around in my brain "since 1991, at least since 1991" (to misquote one of your chracters).  Maybe we should start a new thread to keep the "NEXT MEN is Back!!!" discussion separate from the possibly spoiler-laden speculative discussions that will inevitably ensue.








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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 9  

I've just had a new interpretation ( well, for me anyway) of the last line of the series JB's mentioned. A definitely happier ending than the one I've had in my head all these years since I first saw the quote.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 10  

I think if Kirkland DID change anything then that means the 2112 graphic novel has become obsolete. And it's too great a GN to become obsolete!

••

Hmm.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Suppose you were reading a novel in which someone from the Future traveled back and changed the Past. The first few chapters of the novel give a detailed description of life in the Future, many elements of which are directly the result of things in the Past that the characters want to change. When those characters successfully travel back and change those things, have the first chapters of the novel become "obsolete", or is it all part of one big story?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 11  

An interesting twist to this whole thing -- JB has said that originally Sathanas was not Hilltop.

••

That's not quite what I said.

2112 began as an entity entirely unconnected to the Next Men, or anything else I was working on. Bits and pieces of a lot of ideas floating around in my head, until I one day found a place to put them all. Subsequently, I started on NEXT MEN and realized that 2112 could function as a prequel/sequel to this new series.

Once I thought of this, it seemed likely that Hilltop and Sathanas would be one and the same, but I made no decision one way or the other, until Matt Webb, the colorist on the original series, guessed the connection. Then I realized that the clues were already there, implanted more or less unconsciously by me. So I went ahead with that thread.

The fact that this allowed me to create all kinds of twists, turns, and even "paradoxes" in my timestream was icing on the cake!

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Francis Grey
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Posted: 27 November 2010 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 12  

This is my other question.  How does Cornelius Van Damme know that Thomas Kirkland is coming from the future with a bomb to blow up the White House in an attempt on Sathanas's life, creating the perfect opportunity for him to step in at precisely the right moment in Mark Ivey's body and take over the Presidency?

Is it possible that Kirkland's Uncle Silas found a way to feed information back through time to Cornelius, who is either his ancestor/relative or his earlier self?

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