Author |
|
Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
An experiment: substitute DAVE GIBBONS, BRIAN BOLLAND, ALAN DAVIS et al for average Marvel/DC artists. Do you think the Alan Moore stories you read would still work for you?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
QUOTE:
Oh come on. WATCHMEN isn't an "entry point" for anyone. No one picking up WATCHMEN as their first foray into superhero comics, of which it is, comes away wanting to read Spider-Man or Batman. Most people I know, anecdotal to be sure, whose first experience with comics was reading it, started and ended with WATCHMEN. It didn't encourage them to seek out more comics and become regular readers/purchasers of the genre. That's like saying BONE was an "entry point". It wasn't. It was a comic that appealed to a certain reader, specific to that story and those characters, and not a gateway to other comics in general. |
|
|
How the heck isn't BONE an entry point for new comics readers? It might not be the entry point for new superhero comic readers, but with something like a million printed copies of the trades and individual issues out there, and with tons of those being published through the Scholastic Book Club, there are thousands of kids reading BONE who might very well go on to read other comics.
Watchmen may or may not lead readers to seek out new superhero comics the same way that the Harry Potter books may or may not lead someone to read more fantasy books. I loved the Harry Potter books, but felt no obligation to track down similar books, and it stands to reason that someone could love the hell out of Watchmen and not feel the need to add any more comics to their own bookshelf. Or maybe they'll pick up some more Alan Moore books, or the next Marjane Satrapi book, or the next book that Time Magazine recommends.
Back to the "is it really a graphic novel or not?" thing, I'd say that the definition has changed over time. When Will Eisner first used it, I'm sure he didn't think that publishers would take six issues of Booster Gold, give them perfect binding and call them a graphic novel. But something like New Frontier, Watchmen, or Marvels, just to name a few, conceived as a complete, self-contained story, even if it's serialized in comic book format--I don't really have any complaint with publishers calling those graphic novels.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Mind you, it was years before I would get to appreciate the subtlety and craft of Dave Gibbons´s artwork.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Tim Farnsworth Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 July 2010 Posts: 817
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
I believe Moore's stories would work with anyone but an inept artist, Flavio, though of course working with great artists helped. I remember reading Grant Morrison's Animal Man and really just not caring for the artist much at all - I mean, I really felt he paled in comparison to Bolland's covers - but with a little perseverance I found a great story. It's a tricky thing to speculate on, too. While I think Stan's FF and Spider-Man would've still been fun with Sal Buscema or Don Heck drawing them, I thank the gods we got Kirby and Ditko. And sometimes it's simply telling of a writer's quality that so many great artists want to work with him.
Edited by Tim Farnsworth on 30 July 2010 at 3:34pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
QUOTE:
An experiment: substitute DAVE GIBBONS, BRIAN BOLLAND, ALAN DAVIS et al for average Marvel/DC artists. Do you think the Alan Moore stories you read would still work for you |
|
|
Now I can't shake the mental image of Sal Buscema and Vince Colletta drawing Watchmen. Can't you just see Ozymandius punching some dude through a brick wall?
When I first read Watchmen, actually, I thought the art was pretty bland compared to what I was used to seeing in the comics of the early 1990s, and I thought it was a shame that someone like Walt Simonson didn't draw it. Upon reading and re-reading it, though, Dave Gibbons was the perfect choice for it. By that point in his career, Moore was able to pick and choose his artists, and it's probably safe to say that if Watchmen had been written so that any professional artist could be slotted into the roster, it wouldn't have worked.
My least favorite Moore comics (apart from The Killing Joke) tend to be the books where the art team was an afterthought. Supreme didn't really click for me until Chris Sprouse and Al Gordon took over as the artists, and there are a handful of other projects here and there that are tough reads for the same reasons. Then again, why shouldn't an artist work closely with his writer? Every writer I know prefers to know who's going to be drawing their books ahead of time, and creates a better product when they're able to write to an artist's strengths.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
I think my favorite Moore works are PROMETHEA and THE BALLAD OF HALO JONES.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Now I can't shake the mental image of ...Vince Colletta drawing Watchmen. Yeah, each page would only have a seven panel grid, because two would have been erased...
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 30 July 2010 at 3:49pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36087
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Andrew W. Farago wrote:
How the heck isn't BONE an entry point for new comics readers? It might not be the entry point for new superhero comic readers, but with something like a million printed copies of the trades and individual issues out there, and with tons of those being published through the Scholastic Book Club, there are thousands of kids reading BONE who might very well go on to read other comics. |
|
|
First off, I meant no disparagement toward BONE, which I think is a find piece of work. Second, a kid picks up BONE, then is lucky to find a comic shop (let alone one their parent will more than likely have to drive them to), and I seriously doubt that any given week they'll be able to find even a tenth of the all ages material that I found when I was their age. Finally, when those million printed copies and "tons published through the Scholastic Book Club" work out to actual readers and not some optimistic guesswork, then alert the presses. As it is, readership of monthly comic books is down considerably from just a decade ago let alone twenty years ago. I see no indication that BONE or WATCHMEN is an entry point that is making so much as a dent in the overall publishing of any company, not just Marvel and DC.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Each Scholastic Book Club sale of BONE is a comic in the hands of an actual kid, if they're still selling the same way they did when I was in school. Kids place orders through their teachers, the teachers order books, kids get the books delivered to them at school several weeks later.
Scholastic has plenty of other comics available now, including Smile and the Baby Sitter's Club books by Raina Telgemeier, and I know from talking to Jeff Smith and Raina that there's overlap between those audiences. I don't know if those kids are going to comic shops or not, but I'd bet that they're more inclined to seek out comics at their school library (or public library) than they would without having read BONE in the first place.
And there's a lot more all-ages material readily available to kids who read comics than you seem to think. Less than a tenth of what was available when we were kids? Really? Archie's still around, there are dozens of all-ages manga in print, dozens of readily available comic strip collections dating spanning the past 100 years, readily available reprints of classic superhero stuff, loads of kid-friendly online content, dedicated all-ages Marvel and DC lines...
Yes, you can't go to the 7-11 anymore and be sure that the Superman comic you're buying for $4 is going to be kid-appropriate or remotely interesting to a kid, but when you branch out beyond the monthly comic format, there are plenty of ways for kids to find comics today. Kids aren't finding our comics anymore, but it doesn't mean they aren't finding comics.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36087
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Andrew W. Farago wrote:
Less than a tenth of what was available when we were kids? Really? Archie's still around, there are dozens of all-ages manga in print, dozens of readily available comic strip collections dating spanning the past 100 years, readily available reprints of classic superhero stuff, loads of kid-friendly online content, dedicated all-ages Marvel and DC lines... |
|
|
Yes, really. All of the above were available when I was a kid in the 70s...and then you had all of Marvel and all of DC. There weren't "dedicated all-ages...lines"because the lines were all all-ages. When I don't feel I can give a kid a copy of X-Men, Wolverine, or Batman, then I feel we've lost a ton. If you're content with a small line, with a small number of books pushed off to the side and barely marketed, and then a ton of reprints, fine. Me, not even close.
QUOTE:
when you branch out beyond the monthly comic format, there are plenty of ways for kids to find comics today. Kids aren't finding our comics anymore, but it doesn't mean they aren't finding comics. |
|
|
Again, show me how that translates into actual sales such that the companies are experiencing an uptick in sales based on this mythological child reading comic books. In the end, that's what I'm talking about. Based on sales figures, I just don't see it. Instead, I see pie-in-the-sky optimism that maybe, perhaps, somehow, possibly kids in droves are flocking to comics. Sorry, but I just don't buy it.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Jani Evinen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 May 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 1104
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
I really like Watchmen. I also like the directors cut of the film quite a bit :). Its good to like lots of different things in the superhero/comicbook genre, I also like The Dark Knight Returns, Batman TAS, the Adam West version and the Nolan/Bale version of Batman.
Like said, its nice to like different things cause then you have options :). I think Watchmen is a great comic book story.But I don't think that everything published has to be some sort of imitation of it.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
|
Posted: 30 July 2010 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
There weren't graphic novel lines for kids thirty years ago, or twenty years ago, and there barely were ten years ago. The newest Diary of a Wimpy Kid is going to press with five million copies. BONE has over a million copies in print in various formats worldwide. Are those real enough figures?
Monthly sales figures are in the toilet across the board because the comics industry has been doing its best to kill off the monthly comics format for twenty years or more. If publishers aren't reaching out to the newsstands anymore, and if they've given up on the all-ages market, that's their business decision. If publishers realize that they can move five million books on a first printing by looking outside of the comic shop, that's a valid decision, too.
Again, kids are still reading comics, and they've got tons of reading options today that we never did. The monthly superhero comic isn't much of an option for them anymore, sure, but it's not much of an option for grown-ups, either.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
|
|