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Pete Carrubba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 June 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2767
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 2:15am | IP Logged | 1
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I saw the Watchmen movie, and found it boring. The book, however, was excruciating. Maybe I might have liked it over 20 years ago, but it just didn't resonate with me. I kept feeling like the characters used were poor substitutions for more familiar heroes.
Was I missing something?
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Jim Muir Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1374
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 2:40am | IP Logged | 2
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<<Was I missing something?>>
Pete, the thing I think you're missing is not reading it 20 years ago.
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Petter Myhr Ness Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 3938
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 2:42am | IP Logged | 3
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"I have to wonder if when Frank Miller and Alan Moore produced DKR andWatchmen if they ever intended for them to be such a huge influence onthe comic book industry."
--
Alan Moore said in a recent interview that he did NOT intend for that, and he basically wished the comic industry had moved on.
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Petter Myhr Ness Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 3938
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 2:47am | IP Logged | 4
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It's very possible to like something and still regret the amount of influence it's had. --
I agree. But in the case of DKR I never liked it, and thus resent it twice as much ;-). Maybe not as much for the influence it's had on comics in general, but specifically for the influence it's had on the character Batman.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133613
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 5
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I saw the Watchmen movie, and found it boring. The book, however, was excruciating. Maybe I might have liked it over 20 years ago, but it just didn't resonate with me. I kept feeling like the characters used were poor substitutions for more familiar heroes. Was I missing something? ++ Pete, the thing I think you're missing is not reading it 20 years ago. •• I read it twenty years ago (closer to 25, really!) and I was not impressed. I loved Dave Gibbons' art, but I found the story (if it can really be called such) increasingly hard going, and when we came to the revelation that Rorschach had been crazy even before he put on the costume, I gave up. It was all too negative and nihilistic, and completely at odds with what superheroes are supposed to be. Like using a baseball bat to beat somebody over the head. Sure, you CAN do it, but does that mean you SHOULD? Incidentally, it is extremely disingenuous of Moore to say he wishes the comic industry had "moved on", since he himself has not.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7866
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 6
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Sure he has - he now produces kiddy porn. Which is why he will never get another penny out of me!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133613
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 7
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Incidentally, it is extremely disingenuous of Moore to say he wishes the comic industry had "moved on", since he himself has not.++ Sure he has - he now produces kiddy porn. •• Using somebody else's characters -- in other words, more in the same vein as WATCHMEN. Moore has become his own cliche.
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Albert Matthews Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 August 2006 Posts: 2204
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 8
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Sure he has - he now produces kiddy porn. I just recently read "Lost Girls" and could point out that it's actually an extremely literate allegory for how out of control the world had gotten in the days leading up to World War I, but there's no way I'm winning that fight on this board and, besides, by now it's rather tired and old news anyhow. However, I will mention that earlier this week a teacher colleague of mine in the history department of our high school offered extra credit to students by showing "The Wizard of Oz" synced up to "Dark Side of the Moon" and then exploring its symbolism. I wandered in for a bit and was amazed at just how well the two compliment one another. (For example, we get to the line, "The lunatic is on the grass" just at the point we first meet the Scarecrow dancing around his field.) However, as a result of just having read "Lost Girls," it was hard to not think of Dorothy doing the nasty with virtually every single character on screen (including Toto and various and sundry Munchkins).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133613
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 7:21am | IP Logged | 9
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I just recently read "Lost Girls" and could point out that it's actually an extremely literate allegory for how out of control the world had gotten in the days leading up to World War I, but there's no way I'm winning that fight on this board and, besides, by now it's rather tired and old news anyhow…… However, as a result of just having read "Lost Girls," it was hard to not think of Dorothy doing the nasty with virtually every single character on screen (including Toto and various and sundry Munchkins). •• Just what one would expect from an "extremely literate allegory". The fact that you are a schoolteacher, Albert, scares me more than I can describe.
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Bobby Beem Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2009 Posts: 161
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 10
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...the revelation that Rorschach had been crazy even before he put on the costume, I gave up. ************************************************************ ************* How was that revelation delivered? Maybe somewhat troubled, but "crazy" doesn't seem like a fair description. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Incidentally, it is extremely disingenuous of Moore to say he wishes the comic industry had "moved on", since he himself has not. ************************************************************ ************** Since The Killing Joke, have any of his superhero works contained the same themes? Again, that isn't a challenge. I'm just wondering if I'm forgetting something, or if it's just a different point of view at work.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16008
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 11
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I think Alan Moore has written some pretty good stuff over the years. I do think it sucks that proper super hero comics have pretty much been snuffed out by the influence of Watchmen (and Frank's DKR). I liked both Watchmen (didn't like the film) and DKR, but they should have been one-offs that existed in isolation. Watchmen is negative and nihilistic. I don't mind that in a story contained within itself, but when it bleeds over into all other comics it becomes a massive problem. I think Moore's work on Top 10, Tom Strong and Supreme does show that he has left behind that nihilism and negativity more than a lot of other writers influenced by him in the first place.
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Lars Sandmark Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 3144
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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 12
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Back in the 80s comic publishers were trying new things and pushing storytelling boundaries for the comics form. Independent comics were gaining a cetain level of popularity and with the Direct Sales Market opening up at the time DC tried to tap that vein, so it enabled fans/collectors to see SuperHero comic-storytelling in fresh/new ways. DC, to their credit, published Watchmen and DKR with the best of intentions I suppose, by giving the spotlight to Miller and Moore and others, but yeah, the fanship in general couldn't move past the 'new' gritty Hero.I think it was a mistake to make SuperHeroes into something they are not. Heroes do need to triumph over evil, and sure that villany needs to be depicted (to a point.) but showing SuperHeroes being UN-Heroic is not a SuperHero comic story. It's something else. Don't call an apple an orange, they're similar but DIFFERENT, just like these comics. Sadly fanboys are unable to distinguish SuperHero comicbooks from the crap polluting the stands today. New books don't have good guys in them, they have action heroes, and new readers have no clue that there's a difference. New writers expand on the divide because they don't know how to WRITE SuperHeroes. I'm looking at YOU Bendis.
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