Don't let's forget that a sizeable percentage of people who rack up medical bills they cannot pay already had insurance.  One of the better Democrat sound bites was your insurance sucks, you just don't know it yet.  Sadly, even after this bill this may be the case.

Query: How many people here were aware that if an individual goes to a hospital without insurance he'll be charged more than the insurance company of an equivalent patient with insurance?

And think how much money was spent on needles and vials of medicine, etc.

On one hand, like you say, I'm totally indebted to doctors and medicine just to be alive (as grim as my health is at times), on the other hand - what a miserable god-damned life.

But here's the difference, I suppose - it's not doctors, bur rather, insurance companies that I blame. But also, yes, there are people who could be irresponsible with their money, but ... like... I can show you proof that Aetna and Cigna and Blue Shield and Blue Cross and others have denied people care that has resulted in them dying. I have hard facts. Can you name specific people who have squandered their money and then suck at the public teat?

Sure it happens, but there's a difference in personal viewpoints in who we're made at (see my bottom-up vs top-down post a few pages back) but even more than that, it's kind of a straw-man argument - where you create this bad guy to be hated, but who is he? Who is this dude who is screwing the system? Well, he doesn't exist, but look at him! Isn't he a scarry bad dude?

But here's the difference between our philosophies (and so, removing the right vs wrong of it) even if you could prove that the whole propblem (or even 50% +1), my reaction wouldn't be, you know, fuck the poor, let them die, it would be, what can we do to educate them and get them to use their money wisely?

Clearly, I'm violently against social darwinism. I'm an odd atheist that way - I agree with Bono's interpretation of scripture - "We get to carry each other" - that responsiblity is a blessing.

Query: How many people here were aware that if an individual goes to a hospital without insurance he'll be charged more than the insurance company of an equivalent patient with insurance?

That's an inaccurate blanket statement Kevin. Many's the time I've seen people charged less because they don't have insurance.

What chaps my ass is the needless extra tests and procedures because someone has insurance. This I've also seen many a time.

I agree with Kevin's take on it, based on what I've seen in the hospitals and clinics I've worked in, and I'll bet Kevin sees the same in the hospital that he works in.

 I did the math a few months ago and realized that in my life, starting at age 4, I've given my self over 48,000 shots. Injected myself over 48,000 times.

I never intended to make it seem like I thought I was sicker than you or anyone else. 

 I can show you proof that Aetna and Cigna and Blue Shield and Blue Cross and others have denied people care that has resulted in them dying.

 I never defended insurance companies.

Can you name specific people who have squandered their money and then suck at the public teat?

Sadly yes I can. My parents. I grew up in that kind of environment. My parents favorite trick was to give my sister and I two one dollar food stamps. There were no cards then. They would send us into a store. We were each to buy something a little over a dollar and pay with the two. The store would give us our change back in real money. They would have us do this at several stores so they could collect enough change to buy beer and cigarettes. I know the system is different now, but you asked me weather I could site specific examples.

 fuck the poor, let them die

I never said that.

what can we do to educate them and get them to use their money wisely?

I'm all for that. That would solve a huge number of our societal problems. 

Query: How many people here were aware that if an individual goes to a hospital without insurance he'll be charged more than the insurance company of an equivalent patient with insurance?

That's an inaccurate blanket statement Kevin. Many's the time I've seen people charged less because they don't have insurance.

What chaps my ass is the needless extra tests and procedures because someone has insurance. This I've also seen many a time.

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Well, blanket statements by and large are inaccurate.  Perhaps the real issue is with my wording.  I could have said essentially the same thing but thusly: "One good thing about insurance companies is they give patients some market leverage.  An insurance company is able to negotiate lower bills for the same ailment than a patient with no one to fight for him."

As to the second part: I don't feel I know enough to make that call, but I've heard from nurses that they couldn't see a real reason why we were doing what we were doing.  And I've suspected it from the opposite end, i.e. why hasn't this guy had a chest X-ray in the last eight days?

Nor was my intention - I was trying to get you to empathize with me. To show that I was coming from the same place as you.

Remember the first thing I called you on, a few pages ago? About not reading everything?

I'm glad that you were able to come up with an example of specific people, but if you had read further into my post, you'd see that I asked for a few more things and then even noted that even if those had been met, it still wouldn't change my feelings due to a differnet way of seeing the world.

Sorry your parents were two-bit criminals. Had I access to them I'd try to help them.

Yikes. Sorry - I'm oddly hung-over today - especially odd since I don't
drink.

What is really chapping my ass in this thread lately is the general consensus of a few people that anyone that can't afford insurance, shouldn't be allowed to even enjoy their life. If they can't pay then they shouldn't do anything other than work, come home and wait to go back to work. No phone, no cable, fuck it man a car is a goddamn luxury. Walk to work you lazy no good bum. I don't know what kind of life you had growing up Paul, but it made you into a bitter douchbag.

They would have to give up a lot more than cable, internet, and a fucking cell phone to afford most insurance policies. All of those added together cost less than a weeks premiums.

You people are unbelievable. Do you have no sympathy for your fellow human beings? Not everyone is able to go to college, and money is not always the reason. Guess what? Some people just aren't smart enough. Some just have families to support. So because of that they shouldn't be allowed to have cable tv? They work their asses off for minimum wage and then have fucksticks saying they shouldn't have any extras because health insurance costs an arm and a leg.

Sickening, just sickening. You lay in your bed tonight secure in how much better you are than the guy who picks up your trash, rings up your groceries, etc. But damn, they better not enjoy their lives. They have no right to have any single luxury until they pony up the $10,000 a year for insurance. Doesn't matter if they make less than that, they better come up with it. Contrary to what you may believe, people don't lack insurance to fuck over the people who have it. They lack it because it costs too damn much.

But I have to go. My cellphone just rang, and I'm trying to watch a movie on HBO as I surf the web.The three of them together cost me a grand total of $115 a month. But you're right, if I get rid of them I can afford just over 3 days of health insurance. Yay me.

Idiots.

QUOTE: What is really chapping my ass

You should see a doctor for that.