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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6832
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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Wow these people are involved enough to go protest but they know nothing about what they are protesting.
Watch the lady at the end and what her T-shirt says.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 20 March 2010 at 3:29pm
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 2
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I don't really get tort reform. If a doctor mangles me thru incompetence, why should their be a ceiling on how much I can mangle him?
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10934
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 3
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Victor - the tort reform line is just another bullshit republican strawman, like the idea of a "welfare queen".Sure, in general we could use some tort reform for the whole legal system - it would be nice if there wasn't so much suing and fear of being sued, but just like with the welfare queen thing - you hear about it all the time, but how many people do you know that have sued doctors or doctors that are being sued for no good reason? I work with doctors and I never see lawsuits - except in cases where the doctors seriously cause injury - when malpractice is involved. It's not a real problem, so it won't be fixed, but you'll hear a lot about it because it's a scarry made-up bad guy that distracts you from the real problem. Plus, some doctors are against it because they don't want to get sued, but... you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Responsibility and all.
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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6832
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 4
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You are only as strong as your weakest link teabaggers.
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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Mike thats what I always assumed. Im just glad to hear somebody else confirm it.
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Jeff Gillmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1920
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 6
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Mike, you should know as much as anyone (since you work in the medical field) that part of the tort reform would involve all the testing that some patients get for their ailments. The President has come out against many different medical tests for people, because it raises the cost of medicine. But doctors need to do all the testing to prevent getting sued. Definitely not a strawman arguement.
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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6832
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Posted: 20 March 2010 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 7
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Jeff my youngest fell and cut his head open but showed NO signs of a concussion, but they ordered an MRI "just in case" he was 3 when it happened and we were told, since our insurance was covering it, they didn't see why he shouldn't do it.
Now years later I find out they should have calibrated the machine for a child and MRI's are NOT good to get "just in case" and they are saying MRI's could cause health problems down the road. They do the same thing with sonograms, it used to be only problem pregnancies had a sonogram, but now everyone gets one.
I understand doctors wanting to guard against a lawsuit, but there has to be some common ground.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 21 March 2010 at 1:26am | IP Logged | 8
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Here's the problem with "Tort reform". If you are severely injured (leaving death of the table for the moment) by a doctor's malpractice, you're going to need a lot of added medical attention, and in some cases other costly measures to deal with a possible resulting handicap, for the rest of your life. Now, getting several million dollars for a botched surgery may seem excessive, but when you know that the insurance companies are going to do their best to make sure that this "condition" doesn't get covered by your regular insurance, and that the costs may be excessive, the money won't seem so good. Remember the Terry Schiavo case? There was a million dollar malpractice award in that case, and every cent of that evaporated into her care. (The husband's compensatory share in part going towards him getting a nursing degree to better manage her care.) And that was just for maintenance of a woman in Persisitent Vegatative State. In some cases, such "payouts" don't even cover a fraction of the health care costs that follow. But all they want to talk about are the cases where some guy gets paid a lot and then he's lucky enough to not have to use everything for his follow-up health care. Now, if health care was truly universal, a person would be guaranteed full health care follow-up anyway. It is because health insurance is privatized that pay-outs need to be so extreme. If that "Tort Reform" bill had included a provision that said juries and judges had the right to award a person free "cadillac plan" health insurance for life to compensate for the injury, that would remove the impression that this was a "payday" for the patient. It wouldn't take care of the loss of earnings etc, but for this specific part of a suit it would work. And it seems fair, doesn't it? If you're the victim of malpractice, your health care is covered. But I sincerely doubt that insurance companies would accept that. For one, I think juries (and possibly judges) would be very quick to award if they see that all that's being asked for is compensatory health care.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10934
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Posted: 21 March 2010 at 1:26am | IP Logged | 9
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Jeff, I'll meet you half-way on that one. Almost every doc I work with orders lots of tests, that's true - and some admit that they do it to cover themselves... But other docs have explained this to me as such: it's not just a fear of getting sued, it's doing everything you can for the patient. A psychological factor for both the doctor and the patient. Many of us, myself included, see doctors as these kind of super human heroes who save life but they're just people, and all any of them can do is stave off death and ease pain. Well - that's a gross-oversimplification, maybe and not intended to disrespect doctors, but, and I say this as an atheist, they're not god, you know? Yet when you're in there sick and in pain and crying and afraid, or there with a loved one in the same situation... you want them to be god, and they want very much to do everything in their power to make you "better" and if ordering a bunch of tests helps... well... And, in some cases, it works. Look at jodi's example. Or my mrsa infection - four docs blew it off as acne before one ran a test on me - at this point I had a 105 fever and my body was shutting down - I wish that I had gotten more than just a casual glance from the first four docs. Which goes to my point about strawmen - I hear a lot about the things republicans talk about, but I only experience the things democrats talk about. Maybe I'm sheltered...
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Jeff Gillmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1920
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Posted: 21 March 2010 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 10
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"Many of us, myself included, see doctors as these kind of super human heroes who save life but they're just people, and all any of them can do is stave off death and ease pain." Mike, I and most of the people I know feel that same way.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 21 March 2010 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 11
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I don't really get tort reform. If a doctor mangles me thru incompetence, why should their be a ceiling on how much I can mangle him?
Tort reform isn't about protecting the incompetent. It's to prevent the practice of unnecessary defensive medicine that's performed only as CYA in the event of a possible lawsuit.
A perfect example is cesarean section rates in the US. World Health Organization studies recommend the optimal rate for c-sections is between 5 to 10 percent of all deliveries. Indeed, studies suggest c-section rates above 15 percent do more harm than good.
In the US in 2007, almost one in every three deliveries (31.8 percent) was via a c-section. Let's repeat that: almost one in every three deliveries is via c-section.
Why so high, particularly in light of the fact that mothers are four times more likely to die during a c-section versus a vaginal birth?
Much of the blame can be laid at the feet of trial lawyers like John Edwards who won huge damages on the claim that c-sections help prevent cerebral palsy. Studies have since discounted that myth, although not until long after Edwards and his ilk enriched themselves. (The science was never really on Edwards' side to begin with. His trial victories were based less on the scientific evidences and more on his smooth-talking "trust me" demeanor -- and the heart-wrenching pleas in which he pretended to be the voice of the unfortunate child crying out for justice. But I digress.)
Sadly, the larger myth -- that c-sections are somehow safer for the baby -- remains, and thus it is considered better to perform this more costly procedure.
Better, for whom? I would argue that c-sections in general are not preventative care on behalf of patients but preventative legal care on behalf of doctors and hospitals. Studies have found that the more physicians perceived they were at risk of being sued, the more c-sections they performed. The rule of thumb became "When in doubt, cut it out."
Here's my helpful thought for the day. In cases of wrongful termination, many states require the dismissed employee to file their claim with a government agency which does an initial investigation. If sufficient grounds exist, the claimant receives a right-to-sue letter and the case proceeds to trial. I believe adopting a similar system for malpractice -- where a claim is reviewed for merit -- would greatly reduce the number of lawsuits and promote best practices instead of defensive medicine.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 21 March 2010 at 2:51pm
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10934
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Posted: 21 March 2010 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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That's interesting, Matthew. I've worked in L&D units, and I've seen a fair number of vaginal and c-section births but never heard a doctor give any reason other than medical neccessity for either. Then again, I'm not married to one, like you, so you may have better insight. Perhaps it's the organizations I've worked at, but I also note that I didn't see 1 in three as c-sections; it was more like 1 in ten. And I noted that because it was a big hassle - a surgery, so they needed more people and equiptment in the room. But again, that might be a regional difference, or company difference. Now - having said that - here's another question, totally unrelated to healt-care, (I think...) - why are republicans urging citizens to not fill out the census? What is to be gained from this? Is there a fear that if the numbers go up, and more congresspeople are needed, that they'll vote D or something? Or is it something more sinister? Or less? Is it another case of obstruction just to make Obama look bad - so they can say he screwed up the census or something?
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