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Jeff Gillmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1920
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 1
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Gang, that thread was closed down. It probably isn't the best idea to drag it up again.
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 2
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The Barnes and Noble one?
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 3
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Gang, that thread was closed down. It probably isn't the best idea to drag it up again.
Jeff - It was shut down because it devolved into an ugly argument that kept having fuel tossed onto the fire. In other words, it wasn't WHAT we were talking about there, but the WAY we were talking about it. So far, I think we're all just having a fairly civilized conversation here, and an interesting one where I'm learning quite a bit. Back to the current topic at hand!
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If, however, I were to rephrase my statement to read: for me, getting sick often results in such way that I receive more money than I would otherwise have if I were to have not gotten sick. Would you still object?
I would still object to that, Joseph. You PAID for the insurance you're getting money BACK from. It's not free bonus money - it's not MORE money than you would normally have - it's a SMALL PORTION of the money YOU SPENT.
It's like if I throw money into a wishing well every day - let's say 10 cents a day - and I do that for 2 years so I've chucked $73 dollars into the well. Then one day I sprain my ankle, and I need to buy a $5 dollar tensor bandage to wrap it with. Instead of getting $5 dollars out of the well, I get $10 dollars. Woo-hoo, right? You have more money than if you had not gotten sick, right? Okay - what happened to the other 63 bucks?
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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6832
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 4
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Victor it was the Amazon one and you I believe hit the nail on the head in that thread concerning some people.
Jeff I'll be good, or as good as a liberal commie can be. LOL
Jeff you will be proud of me I am going out this weekend campaigning for a local republican.
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 5
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Okay - what happened to the other 63 bucks?
*******
For me once I declare money dead and get something back I see it as a bonus.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 6
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William, First, I am very glad to read that your wife is responding well to treatment. That's the most important thing, and I pray that she remains well. Alas, you would likely find a similar situation to your story in Canada. Not having to lose your job to get treatment, per se, but just replace "my insurance" with "Alberta Healthcare" (or the provincial system of your choice) as the entity that you would have to leap through the hoops to get your medication request processed. And add into the mix a waiting list to see a specialist if the family doctor couldn't prescribe it directly. And the inevitable argument between brand name versus generic products and the province willing to provide only the cheaper option. One of the guiding principles of Canadian healthcare is universality, the premise that everyone pays their taxes into the system and gets the same level of treatment regardless of income or how much tax paid. Now, of course, we know that's a fib: Hockey players and Members of Parliament rarely have to wait for treatment, and those with means opt to go for treatment in the United States rather than sit on a waiting list in Canada. But still, on its face, universality is a strong guiding principle. And of course, in practice, it leads to some rather silly decisions. For example, the five-year hip. This may have changed in the last couple of years, but back when my wife was practicing in Canada, for those needing a hip replacement, Canadian Medicare would only pay for a five-year hip. That's how long it's rated to last and they buy them in bulk to get the best price. Now, let's say you are a relatively young person getting hip surgery -- say, in your 60s -- and based on actuarial tables you expect to live at least another 15 years. So, you'd rather have the 15 year hip or the 25 year hip, to avoid more potential operations down the road. No, Canadian Medicare only pays for the five-year hip. Okay, you say, how about I pay the difference between the cost of the five-year hip and an upgraded model? Same operation, just an upgraded piece of metal and (bonus!) potential costs savings down the road from not having to do more surgeries. Sound good? No, Canadian Medicare only pays for and only provides the five-year model. So, because of universality, with Canadian Medicare you have no option but getting the five-year hip and going into surgery to get it replaced when it wears out. Or, if you have means, you can cross the boarder into the US and get whatever you want. This is what gets lost in the debate. People are unhappy their insurance costs so much, but they don't go the next step and investigate WHY it costs so much. The major cost drivers are services and treatment. You cannot decrease demand for services and treatment in the short-term, so the only way you control those costs are to restrict services and/or restrict treatment options. I lived through it in Alberta back in the 1990s with the Province going through an economic recession due to declining oil prices -- Alberta is like Texas: oil and cattle -- and the government sought to cut healthcare costs. An advertising plan asking people to reduce their visits to doctors (demand side) actually increased visits. So instead the Provincial Government decided to control costs on the supply side by restricting services. Waiting lists for specialists grew longer, hospital beds were cut (people were literally on stretchers in emergency for days because rooms were not available), doctor reimbursement fees for patient visits were cut (while costs for providing services continued to climb) and prescription options were de-listed. And, it goes without saying, Alberta Medicare premiums (i.e. taxes) continued to increase. As a good Canadian, its part of my DNA to believe the there should be a social safety net to save people from falling through the cracks. There should be a floor of healthcare services that no one falls below. But with universality, the Canadian Medicare system also provides a ceiling that you cannot rise above (unless you have the money to opt out and go south to the United States for treatment). Having finally finished reading the Senate Bill -- and now looking forward to reading the reconciliation package -- it remains to be seen what system we're about to have delivered here in the United States.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 18 March 2010 at 2:54pm
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 7
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Mike O'Brien wrote "...other than the fact that most Candadians are better dressed and have better manners than America, and a slight accent, you CAN'T TELL THE DAMN PLACES APART." Actually, everytime to go back to Canada I'm struck by green and empty it is. And this is coming from a guy who how now lives in heavily-forested rural Northern California. On a more serious note, the major difference is a mindset. There used to be an old joke that kids in the US wanted to grow up to become businessmen while kids in Canada wanted to grow up to work for the government, but there is a germ of truth to the wag. America is about Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (note only the pursuit) while Canada, written clearly in the founding document of Confederation, the British North America Act, is about Peace, Order and Good Government. Just compare those two statements for a moment, and that should tell you all you need to know about the differences north and south of the 49th parallel.
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Jeremiah Avery Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2008 Location: United States Posts: 2431
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
I am going out this weekend campaigning for a local republican |
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Time to turn in your commie membership card, Jodi!
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10934
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 9
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Touche, Matthew, but let's consider a few things here - no matter what happens with this bill that will serve to strengthen our safety net, the free market still stands in America.Bottom line - before and after this bill passes, if you have a bag of cash and you want to pay a doctor for a service, you're totally free to. This bill won't change that - the focus is on the health insurers, not the doctors. In fact, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need insurance - we'd go in and pay for the treatment when needed. But it costs too much. You are also right to look into that - why does it cost so much? Well, tons of reasons, mostly legit and that is what it is, but that's also where something like insurance can be a good thing. I'm ok with paying into a fund each month if I know I'll get something back from it. And such a fund - for something as essential as health care - shouldn't be left to the whims of greed and chasing bottom lines. Let's take a look at the history of Health Insurance - when Henry J Kaiser opened his shipyards in Richmond California, he partnered with Dr Sidney Garfield, who worked as the facility doctor. Garfield suggested that each employee put in twenty five cents from each paycheck, and in turn, when ever they needed medical care, they just came and got it and didn't have to pay anything. So far so sweet, right? Tragically, later, in the 1970s, Kaiser, as a health care organization, made a bit of a bad turn, and helped create our modern system of HMOs - this in a response to the rising health care costs - the rates rose at a normal level till 1967 - when the rate of cost shot up over 100% and kept climbing. Suddenly taking a quarter from each check wasn't going to cover it; a better insurance plan needed to be worked out. In all fairness to Kaiser, they have since proved to be more reasonable, but they also have a unique situation - they are both a health care organization, as well as an insurance. It's like you're a ship-yard working working on Henry J's lot in Richmond - you're paying into the fund, but if you want service, it's there for you - paid, since Kaiser has their own organization. You go from dept to dept, without referals or pre-auths. It's pretty awesome. (Full disclosure - I spent a number of super happy years working for Kaiser - it's an awesome organization. I was really proud of the following recent developments: One, Obama noted, a few months ago, that he thought Kaiser had the best set up for health care. Two: Kaiser just last month finally finished their complete EMR installation - they are 100% online - no paper charts or records anywhere in the KP system. It's the biggest EMR in America, perhaps the world. I'm very proud to have worked on that project.) Anyway - I think we'd do better with more systems like Kaiser - where the insurance is in-house, and not some third party nightmare. I don't know. It's a thought.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10934
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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Ah - Matthew - I was responding to your first post - as for your second - I blame the difference between Canada and America on the original settlers - I think the French Jesuits, who at least made some effort to communicate with and live alongside the natives (to some degree), set a different tone from our Puritans and other religious zealots.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10934
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 11
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Oh, and to the point of being different - yes, there are cultural differences - Canada is - how did Dave Foley explain it? The English are afraid of being embarrassed, Canadians are afraid of embarrasing someone else? There's that.But like, there are subtle differences - you have Tim Horton, we have... everything else. Your cheeseburgers are delicious. Ours are usually one USDA grade away from poison. Etc. But my point is - there's no bread-lines, people aren't starving. It looks like, basically, no offense - MORE America, you know? Like, when you cross the border south, to Mexico, it's different. The buildings are different, the language is different, etc, but Canada? Just seems like another state. So, clearly the Canadian system isn't causing any destruction of life or society.
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 12
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Not to derail the discussion with a controversial topic, but in the past few years I've been making trips to Minneapolis to see ball games and it sure does feel a lot different being in a place where there are signs on mall doors saying No Guns Allowed.
We have No Smoking signs on our malls. No Pets. No Rollerblades. You guys have No Guns. Little freaky, I gotta say.
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