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Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 1  

Seriously? People are regarding that murderer Stack as a hero? Sigh.

What galls me more is the way people demonize government and policy. If it's "big" it must be evil. No matter what any party promises, government has only gotten bigger for many decades - so that's a load of hot air. Now people are deriding proposed healthcare policy as having "too many pages," like solving healthcare could be done in a 2-page memo. 
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 2  

I actually typed in "Jesus at a tea party" in google, because I was going to make a joke and one of the pictures you posted popped up and I hit the link.

So is google verifying Jesus was a black tea party guy.....hmmmmmmm? LOL

I will say this, that on Thursday I go to a fundraiser for a guy I am going to help campaign and wait for it..........he's a republican.


Yeah Monte there are actually a ton of pro Joe Stack Facebook pages with tons of members. (Or at least when I checked a couple days after it happened)
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 3  

Monte,

There are some people who feel government is never the answer and some people who feel government is always the answer. They're both wrong. Like most things in life there are certain roles the government should undertake and others it should stay away. The trick is figuring out which. I've always felt when looking for a solution to a problem -- to paraphrase Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King -- "Government if necessary, but not necessarily government."

And "big" is not necessarily evil, but "big" often means something is unchecked, uncontrolled and unregulated. And that's not just big government, but big business, big oil, big pharma, big labour, big banking, you big name it. As I've written previously in this thread, when someone says something is "too big to fail" my first thought is "that's a prime candidate for anti-trust legislation."

And, personally, I have no issue with lengthy legislation. Often, longer is better, because it leaves less room for interpretation and doubt. It does give me pause when they've barely finished assembling a bill and it has to be voted on NOW before anyone has a chance to read it in its final form. I'm one of those sad people who actually enjoys reading legislation -- THOMAS is my friend! -- particularly legislation that will have an impact on my family's livelihood.

It's been good to have this brief pause in the mad rush so I've been able to plow through most of the House and Senate Healthcare bills. People should be operating from direct knowledge rather than hand-my-down "facts" from cable news talking heads and talk radio and spin from the various pressure groups.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 4  

Here I am, checked in to my hotel room, really ready to hit the sack, but before I do - I saw this earlier on my Droid (wish I could post to the forum from that damn thing!) and wanted to weigh in:

Matthew asked: But most importantly, would you care to disprove the assertion: Do you think one-sided political presentations DON'T make for poor drama and DON'T risk insulting a portion of the audience? That, after all, was the point...

I don't think they make for poor drama, no.  In fact, it makes for exciting and thought-provoking drama.  Makes you think.  Makes you consider where you stand on issues, what you believe.  I also (obviously) don't care at all about insulting the audience, but then, you've read my posts here, so that should be self-evident.

Let's be more specific - we're talking about a book called "Captian America" that started as war-time propaganda - I don't think "insulting a portion of the audience" was ever a consideration with this title.

I will conceede this, though - the Nixon story made sense, the Reagan story, while awesome, didn't make sense. 

Let me explain - Captian America in 1970 was not the Cap of WWII - due to the awesomeness that is Stan Lee - what started as a kind of one-note bit of propaganda became a cool "man out of time" story.  And along those lines, considering how Nixon created the toxic atmosphere that surrounds politics (consider that it was members of his cabinet that also populated the Reagan and Bush cabinets and teams, spreading their filthy views of "us v them" - people blame Ted Kennedy for starting the ball rolling in that by standing up to Nixon's Supreme Court nominations, but considering the polarizing figures Nixon nominated what Ted did was heroic.  Where was I?  Oh, yes...) -

So - it's a good story to me - that a guy who left things with FDR and HST and comes to to Nixon - to have his veiws of the President shattered - the resulting story, where Cap becomes "Nomad - the man without a country" and then realizes that Nixon aside, America is still great - that's a great story, and perfect for the character.

The Reagan one is only good because I personally think Reagan was a pretty vile and evil man, but there's no context for it in the scope of Cap's stories.

But then, let's cut to this new story - even if you were worried about upsetting your readers, why would reprinting signs that are based on actual signs displayed at event offend them?  What, is truth kryptonite to Tea-Baggers?  (Uh... obvious alarm going off here...)

How many times, as well, have we spelled out on this thread that tea-baggers aren't racist, but surely some vile hatefull racists are in the tea-parties - as seen by many photos in this thread alone - I think, honestly, to both of you, if we're still trotting out pictures of random black guys at fairs?  Then games are being played.  And I know, in my heart of hearts, that neither of you two are game players - I suspect there's some sort of action and reactions going on.  I just have a pet-peeve (as seen in my post yesterday) to people who keep trotting out the same stuff over and over even after it's been addressed and dealt with.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | 5  

Jodi,

I'm glad to hear that you're going to be working on someone's campaign. It's a wonderful, rewarding activity that more people should engage in.

In my past life (back in Canada) I was heavily involved in politics. I worked for both Liberals and Conservatives -- never the New Democratic Party, though, now that I think about it -- and my only criteria for a candidate was their integrity. An "L" or a "C" (or an "R" or a "D") behind the name means very little if the person doesn't have good character. I don't think I could ever bring myself to vote for a skunk with the rationale "well, he's with the right party."

I miss campaigns...

As for Jesus and the Tea Parties... Gosh, that's one to consider... I believe the whole "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" suggests he might not have been out at those rallies... Then again, the most he ever seemed to be interested in was a 10 percent tithe...

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | 6  

Mike,

A quick couple-of-liner before I go off to bed. Things were getting grumpy between Jodi and me, so I thought I'd find something off-the-wall to lighten the mood. Little did I dream I was in the slipstream of a concerted effort by the conservative cabal. Through the looking glass we go...

I hope things are better between her and me. She seems like a nice person and I don't want to push her buttons.

In terms of drama, political or otherwise, I think you can make your point without a smear job, a hatchet job or using a straw man. In comic book terms, what makes Doctor Doom and Ra's Al Ghul great villains is because they could be right. Their convictions are real and convincing, and their goals even somewhat noble. It is their extreme measures in pursuit of their aims, the ends-justifying-the-means rationale, the human cost spent along the way that makes them villains.

As for the Secret Empire storyline -- Mike, it works if Captain America has come out of the deep freeze 30 minutes beforehand and hasn't endured the agonizing Chinese water torture drama of Watergate. Because by cover date August 1974, it's not a great reach to think Richard Nixon the ultimate villain in the republic. It's low lying fruit, actually.

As an alternative to picking low lying fruit, I think there is great coin by putting the counter-spin on your adversaries. Case in point: There was a great Saturday Night Live routine years ago during Iran-Contra. Phil Hartman played Reagan who was single-handedly running the illegal operation from the White House, right down to conducting arms transactions on the phone in fluent Iraqi. Then he'd meet with the girl scouts and be "Well...", and as soon as they were ushered out he'd be back to the one man show. It was wonderfully funny because it played right against the constant refrain of stupid doddering old man.

Here's the link to it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skQuhoG7fFM

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 7  

There was a great Saturday Night Live routine years ago during Iran-Contra. Phil Hartman played Reagan.......

*************************

That's one of my all-time favorite Hartman bits. Brilliant.

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Arc Carlton
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Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 8  

Points.  They're so easy to dismiss.

_________________________

I guess sometimes they are Al .

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 01 March 2010 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 9  

Some thoughts for today:

On the challenge the Democrats face with passing Healthcare despite their majority in the House and the Senate:

"I just don't know where they get the votes in the House," Pennsylvania Rep. Jason Altmire, a Democrat who voted against the health care bill, told Politico.com. "It's a huge challenge because . . . the people who voted 'yes' would love a second bite at the apple to vote 'no' this time because they went home and had an unpleasant experience as a result of their 'yes' vote. I don't know if there is anybody who voted 'no' that regrets it."

On the misinformed, know-nothing, Tea Party members:

"The people cannot be all, and always, well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:372, Papers 12:356

On new threats to the IRS:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1968878,00.ht ml

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/01/haz-mat-crews-desce nt-on_n_481217.html



Edited by Matthew McCallum on 01 March 2010 at 3:56pm
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 01 March 2010 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 10  

You have politicians who go "I don't want to vote according to my convictions about what is best for the people of my state and the US in general because people back home pick on me." ?  Seriously?

Vote the spineless cry-bay out, I say.

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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 11  

Matthew unless we called each other horrible names, brought weapons to the forum or wouldn't allow the other person to talk, we aren't being grumpy when talking politics. :0)  I am all for people expressing their opposing view in an impassioned way. That is the thing that upsets me about the whole tea party/anti-health care/town hall screamers there is a bullying mentality in the movement that needs to be addressed and no one that supports those people seem to be calling them out for a lot of bad behavior.

And before someone pops in and says I am against free speech, I am for free speech. But encouraging violence/racist behavior is not free speech, it is like screaming fire in crowded hall.

 




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Jeff Gillmer
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 12  

Knut, it looks like in a lot of cases, that's going to happen.  Especially with Speaker Pelosi telling the dems to vote for the bill, even though it may damage them politically in an election year.
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