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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 27 August 2009 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 1  

"And then he woke up..." springs to mind.
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Victor Rodgers
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Posted: 27 August 2009 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 2  

I read Spider-Man comics when I was a kid and generally found them lacking. I could never figure out why the current Spider-Man comics I was reading were not nearly as good as the reprints I read in Marvel Tales and Spider-Man Classic. obviously talent plated a big part. but i think the marriage was a big part of it. It changes a lot of the dynamic in Spider-Man. I think being a loner is a big part of the character. He has friends but at the end of the day he is on his own. A wife really changes that. She becomes an inseparable part of the act.

I never cared for Mary Jane. In the comics I read as a kid she came across as a nagging shrew who knowingly made Peter's life more difficult. Its one thing to nag him for missing a date when you think he is a grad student/Bugle photographer. But hen she knows how he spends his time saving lives, it makes her insufferable. Some might say that is the writing. But what other drama/tension can you add to the relationship. Marriages are a creative dead end with a character like Spider-Man. 
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 27 August 2009 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 3  

But it WAS the writing, Victor.

You can't keep Pete in High School- that's too far back to go.

College then, but firmly at the start of his academic career, 20-21 years old absolute tops. Preferably 19.

Married? Sure! He knew MJ for a few years let's say, they got hitched. Is she a supermodel? No! She's a part-time student (they can't both afford tuition at the same time, and major loans would kill them) and she models on the side in local flyers and for bus stop ads or something. It's not great money - but it's like the model equivalent of Peter's freelance photo gig.

They still struggle with finances, they struggle to spend time together, Peter needs MJ to help care for May but MJ feels guilty about always making excuses. They're young, probably too young to be married, but they're in love and they're trying to make it work. The Big Bad World is still out there, and they aren't quite a part of it yet because they haven't entered real careers or started a family, and ...

That's it. That's the point at which Spider-Man is "grown-up" and "married" while still maintaining his underdog nature. I understand, Victor, that he's not alone - and that's a HUGE deal, I won't deny - but he has a sickly aunt, he's barely scraping by... MJ could have been his ONE GOOD THING and even that is strained by his night job.

I would argue having her be a "super-model" and him an award winning photographer with a published book and having dropped out of college for the time being and thus being forced into a Job job as opposed to a part-time between classes thing is what aged him more than the marriage.

The dissolution of the marriage, no matter what, was going to be a mess. But since it happened, and it existed... it should have been written as a typical Parker marriage, not a Peter makes it big marriage.

Leave Mephisto out of it!

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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 4  

When did MJ become the famous super model? I don't remember her being that during the DeFalco run that set the fact she knew Spider-Man's id. I was under the impression she was a struggling actress or something. Was it during Micheline/McFarlane era? I think this hurt the characters way more than the marriage itself.
In any case, Spider-Man had stopped being a teenager/high school boy pretty early in the run. Was it a bad decision? Maybe. Maybe not. For a vast majority of the audience, though, that's who Spider-Man was: a struggling but brilliant college student, with many hurdles in his life, with a part-time gig that included a brilliant cast like JJJ and Robbie, with girl-friend problems and rivalires, with a secret id that helps him escape form everyday problems, but more often than not also gets in the way. I can't see how adding a mariage at a young age can really be all that harmful or why it would alienate teenagers.
In any case, the writing is what makes everything work or not. Everything alse is jus bs. Like Morrison's excuse that the wedding of Scott and Jean was in trouble for a long time. Er, yes, just because HE said so to fit HIS agenda, not because it was ever shown that way!!!
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 5  

The somber, off-note stories of What-If have become Now-Then.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 28 August 2009 at 2:03am
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 2:18am | IP Logged | 6  

It's an interesting thing. The writers say there must be major continuity and that everything has to be explained. Meanwhile, they feel free to 'update' an origin story by moving it from one old war (Was it Korea or Vietnam I can never remember) to another (Afghanistan).

Now, the updating in that way I have no problem with but why can't they just apply that same logic to everything else and just say 'It doesn't need an explaination'. We are giving the appearance of change without real change? I have not seen a single complaint that The Simpsons still have a baby after how ever many years and no one complains, no one says 'This makes no sense'. We understand this and the characters grow but remain the same recognisable characters we first watched. Because they are drawn. If actors were playing them then yes, we would see those actors grow and age and so the characters would most likely have to as well, but we only hear their voices.

This is how it should be in comics (For the most part). Instead, writers, desperate to make a mark, add things that mark a date, alter the status quo beyond what it should be and the steady drip drip effect becomes an avalance and the characters become unrecognisable to what they were.

And before you know it, it's been 8 years since Thor, Iron Man and Captain America were part of the Avengers.

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James Woodcock
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 2:21am | IP Logged | 7  

And there's the other thing. The Avengers were made up of heavy hitters, having large scale adventures. Now, the rosta includes:
Luke Cage
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Spider-Woman
Hawkeye
Mockingbird
Ms Marvel

No real heavy hitters. And what are they dealing with? Street level problems for the most part. Where are the big guys? They can't even deal with the Green Goblin for crying out loud. 

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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 4:26am | IP Logged | 8  

they can't even deal with the Green Goblin for crying out loud.

+++++

I am almost afraid to ask, but, why? Spider-Man and Ms Marvel could beat him senseless on their own. All these guys seem overkill to handle GG.
As for the "heavy hitters", OK, during the Heck era the Avengers were Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Swordsman, Giant-Man and the Wasp. No real heavy hitter up until Hercules joined.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 9  

Giant-Man seemed to be regarded as a heavy hitter early on.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 10  

"Luke Cage
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Spider-Woman
Hawkeye
Mockingbird
Ms Marvel"

My own problem with that line-up is that there are one too many mavericks in that group : Wolverine, Spider-Man and Hawkeye. And there's no strong center to the group, like Captain America would be.

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 11  

Some might say that is the writing. But what other drama/tension canyou add to the relationship. Marriages are a creative dead end with acharacter like Spider-Man.

---------------------------------------------

Everything is the writing, because as JB has pointed out, things only happen because the writer makes them happen.  But at the same time, marrying off certain characters removes one of the components of dramatic tension in the piece.  Spider-Man's love life, and its ups and downs, was a major part of the book for years up until the marriage.  The marriage removed that.  And there are only so many different ways of fleshing out a 'wife' character.

This is also one of the biggest mistakes they ever made with Superman.  I was reminded of it again after the Siegel descision.  The Siegels own the elements of 'the love triangle between Lois, Clark, and Superman'.  I remembered 'oh yeah, for decades, that was one of the main themes in the book...'  And you can see now how impoverished Lois is as a character (lots of 'yes, honey, be safe', how they thrash about to find a use for Lana Lang, how its made the Planet news room that much less interesting, so we see that much less of Perry, Jimmy, etc.

There are very few characters (like Reed and Sue) who marrying them doesn't harm the characters and supporting cast.  And even with Reed and Sue, I can imagine someone at the time the Annual came out complaining that they liked the love triangle with Namor.  Marriages are 'events' that give you a potential one-time spike in sales, then hurt the characters for years afterwards.


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Jonathan Stover
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Posted: 28 August 2009 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 12  

Reed and Sue getting married also works differently because they're part of a team that functions as a family in their book, and you've still got the trials and tribulations of Ben and Johnny to deal with as singles (and, as grumpy outcast and hotheaded teenager, the Thing and Johnny give you two distinct reader-identification types to set against Mr. Fantastic, who's both Dad and bookworm/intellectual -- and probably the best heroic argument for book-larnin' in American pop culture since Doc Savage and his Amazing Five).

Cheers, Jon

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