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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133555
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 1
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Which makes it frustrating that so many of the fans go for the flashy, splash
page-prone, pin-up artists.
••
Terry Austin commented years ago on the artists who had discovered a way
to publish monthly portfolios, rather than stories.
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John Moon
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Posts: 26
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 11:21am | IP Logged | 2
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Ditko was one of the many artists who did not adjust well when the size of the original art boards was cut almost in half in the early Seventies.
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Not sure if I understand this right... I was under the impression the standard original size in 70s-80s was 1.5x the printed page. Does this mean prior to the 70s it was nearly 3x?
Ditko's early 80s material did seem oddly stylized to me. I had always assumed (guessed) it was rushed to meet deadlines. Both before and after that era I found his work to be spectacular.
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2414
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 3
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I believe that the line "your old stuff was better" should be borne with
grace by the artist to whom it's addressed. It simply means that the
artist's personal vision was so powerful that it spoke through the
inadequacies of youth.
It's kind of like saying that Kirby was unbreakable, that his storytelling
survived even the worst inking.
I agree with Erik in that the early work is much more visceral: it's driven
by the artist's intense desire to self express. Later in a artist's career this
drive is much more attenuated.
And posting that particular topic on this forum is brilliant. It's about time
someone moved the topic off the shoulder's of JB -- even Atlas needed a
breather. As if he's the only one that particular criticism has been aimed
at. Starting with Savage Dragon #75, EL took a radically different direction
and it's cost him a following.
You can say the same thing of other fields: in boxing, for example, the up
and comers often fight with little style or grace. They want to claw their
way to the top any way they can, with little or nothing to lose. Once
they're on the top they can afford to show a little more style and grace
and form because they can pick their easy opponents. The raw power and
will to win gets lost to the audience.
Edited by Jesus Garcia on 11 July 2009 at 11:42am
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David Kingsley Kingsley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1098
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 4
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Excellent post, Erik, thank you for sharing it, here.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 5
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I don't claim to be able to read minds... Wish I could when I wanted to do so.
Erik Did start a thread on his forum. It was the exact same post as here. Perhaps the title does refer to John Byrne. But it does refer to every artist be they professional comic artist or painters or whatever.
'Your old stuff was better, maybe would be more acurate if it was Some of your old stuff was better.
Say it falls upon the viewer of the work to determine whats better to them.
As a kid I hated Jack Kirby I did think he was a hack. But as I got older I came to understand better what it was I was looking at and grew to love his stuff. Compareing Kirby's earlier work he was doing with Joe Simon to that he did with Stan Lee. The Later work was better. But as he got older his abilty to do what he did was hampered by his human limitations.
John Byrne and Gene Colan were my favorite artists as a kid, JB's stuff was brillant.for a long time I did feel his older stuff was better then what he had done since I first discovered him on X-Men. But again as I got older I began seeing I was wrong. His ability to draw was much better as he matured as an artist.
There are many factors the go into deciding what is better. It really is about us who we were when we first discovered that artist and how we changed.
You know what it's ok, to have loved a certain artist's style. It's ok if you liked Rob Liefeld's stuff when he came out or Todd Mcfarlane's
It's perfectly fine if you hated JRJR's work when you first discovered him but like it now. It's also fine to dislike someone personally but still be a fan of his art.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 6
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"Not sure if I understand this right... I was under the impression the standard original size in 70s-80s was 1.5x the printed page. Does this mean prior to the 70s it was nearly 3x?"
The old standard art size (12x18) is known as "twice-up", being about twice as large as the printed art (about 6,5x10) in each direction. In square inches that's almost 4 times (2x2) the printed art. it was then reduced to 10x15 as a standard, which is about 1,5 times larger than the printed art in each direction. making it about 2,25 times as large in square inches.
It's the square inches that have been cut about in half. (Meaning each side is divided by about the square root of 2)
Of course, in the vernacular it's rounded off. "twice-up" doesn't literally mean exactly twice as tall and twice as wide. And halved doesn't mean exactly halved.
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 7
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he has his own forum in which to discuss whatever he wants.
+++
Erik Larsen is Bizarro John Byrne.
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Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1374
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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As a creative no-one wants to hear the stuff they did 20 years ago was better, as now they're more experienced and far more knowledgable. However, lets flip this argument across to the music industry and ask the same question...
3 off the top of my head:
Rolling Stones
Paul McCartney
David Bowie
Are they more experienced, more talented? Yes.
Is their old stuff better? I cant imagine anyone making a serious argument suggesting otherwise.
So I guess theres more to it than experience and knowledge. I think sometimes maybe its the raw power and energy, the lightning-in-a-bottle moment of a new artist who doesnt know what the rules or boundaries are, so are never constrained by them.
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Marcus Hiltz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1032
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 9
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Imagine being Prince! He continues to write amazing music but will forever live under the shadow of his "old stuff" Purple Rain!
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Matt Adler
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 November 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 10
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Of course Erik posted this here because JB has talked many times in the past about the "your old stuff was better" phenomenon. That's not the mind-reading part. The mind-reading is assuming that the intent was to cause trouble, rather than simply raise a new perspective on a topic with people who have an interest in it.
If I go to Erik's board and start a topic about whether artists don't need writers, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to pick a fight or start trouble because of Erik's past statements on the subject; I can certainly have a legitimate interest in discussing it and getting the perspective of Erik and his fans on it.
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Robert Cosgrove
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1710
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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I doubt anybody heard "your old stuff was better" more often than Wally
Wood, at least in the pre-internet days. . . .
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Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: 11 July 2009 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 12
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I don't think this theory works for rock music Jim. Rock music is about youthful arrogance and energy. It helps A LOT to be in your 20's in this case. In writing and drawing stories, experience is much more important.
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Topic Closed)
