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Brian Peck Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1709
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | 1
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With John Buscema alot of his later stuff was breakdowns
while the early stuff was full pencils. Hard to compare as he
had so many artists ink him and many were over powering
his pencils. Though the best place to see John's art
unaltered was his Conan covers. Can't blames the guy for
switching to breakdowns he could do so many pages a
month. To John comic books was just a job to help support
his family.
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Daniel Gillotte Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2672
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 2
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The comparison with rock music and comic artists resonates powerfully for me. It's a tension between enthusiasm/ energy and professionalism/ technique. Erik starts to get at it for me with this line, "An artist may struggle with a
hand, for example, and pull off something weird and strange yet beautiful
but hopelessly flawed." I would add a friendly amendment or edit which would be that sometimes a young artist or an artist of any experience pushing into new territory may struggle with a pose or an image and pull of something simply beautiful, perfect even in its way, not weird or strange at all. I'm sure it's wrong to quote Bob Ross, but his "happy accidents" spring to mind. Sometimes we create our best stuff when we're not consciously trying to.
Bands and other commercial artists run into the problem/ challenges of the requirement to produce on new albums or works of art. Seems to me that that pressure can often cause some lackluster results. (Other artists do shine with this pressure, though, too.)
All of this being said, I still think that a lot of old stuff was better is simply nostalgia (not that there's anything wrong with that!) or aversion to change. There are many artists and bands that I grow right along with and love each step in the journey and some that I find where our paths are diverging.
Edited to clarify...
Edited by Daniel Gillotte on 10 July 2009 at 11:08pm
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Robert Oren Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 March 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1209
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | 3
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What about age? maybe like an athlete your skills fades with age?
i always wondered if that had anything to do with it?
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Jeff W Williams Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 August 2007 Location: United States Posts: 299
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | 4
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Seeing Joe Kubert's latter day output puts that to rest, IMO. He's still as fantastic as ever. Eisner was too. I realize those are sort of the giants, though, so you may still have a point.
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Charles Jensen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 April 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1127
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | 5
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I have never understood why the concept of young artists
doing their best work at that time is so controversial or
insulting. Don't most "geniuses", prodigies or creative
people do their best work as young men? Did the Beatles
do their best work when they were younger or at the end
of their lives?
I do believe that skills do improve with age and
experience.. but I think creative genius is strongest
when an artist is younger. From my perspective that
always seemed like a no-brainer.
I don't understand why it's so insulting, either. Most
people would kill for half the talent of many of these
artists. It's not as if they are bad as they get older..
they just aren't in their prime.
Part of it may have to do with the time. Like musicians,
I think you are more in tune with your time -- trends --
and the zeitgeist of the moment when you are younger. And
you lose touch with the kids as you get older.
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Frantz Kenol Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2009 Location: United States Posts: 189
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 12:03am | IP Logged | 6
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This is truly a wonderful post, because it asks a question that I (and I'm sure many fans) have often wondered about. What makes it particularly interesting is that the question is coming from an artist. One that I (and many fans) like and respect). ( I thought if anyone, YOU guys would know the answer)
I would like to address your post point by point if I may.
QUOTE:
. ...And before anybody says anything--this is not aimed at any one specific artist but rather many of them to some degree.
We've all heard it before--and many have said it about an artist at one time or another.
"Your old stuff was better."
And most artists who hear that can only cringe and say to themselves, "really? Do you really prefer my work when I didn't know what I was doing? When everything was crude and clumsy and awkward? You really prefer THAT to THIS?"
And the answer is--yeah, kind of.
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well said,...it is true we often feel that way. However, even at this early stage I feel the need to point out that we don't always feel that way. Fans don't always feel that an artist's earlier work is better. In fact in many cases we can see wonderful progression. But the point is well taken because it is true for many of the artists we love (or used to) and it is quite puzzling.
QUOTE:
And it's not just a matter of the fan having been 10 or 12 or whatever. There's a crude energy in many artists' early work that is lacking in later work. What's interesting about it is that the work is often unpredictable because the artist is figuring things out. An artist may struggle with a hand, for example, and pull off something weird and strange yet beautiful but hopelessly flawed. The artist may learn from that experience and never do anything like it. the artist sees it as a failed experiment. The fan sees it as interesting and unusual.
Years into it--the artist may have figured everything out. This is how he draws a hand--this is the way he draws an explosion--this is a running pose--a punching pose--and it may be very competent but to the reader--it's lifeless and dull. They've seen it all before. They're familiar with the artist's bag of tricks. It all looks the same.
To the artist-- it's baffling. It's maddening. Here they are--at the peak of their powers--their work has fewer flaws than ever before--they're figured everything out--worked out all the kinks. The anatomy is stronger, the perspective is right on, the storytelling is clear, the proportions are perfect and yet--fans aren't as enthusiastic as they once were.
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well said...you are correct that it isn't about being at a younger age. even As an adult I can look back and see that an artists' earlier work was "better" compared to his current stuff. and this brings me to your next point. Though I'm sure what you said is true in many cases, once again, it isn't always true. there are instances where at least from my POV the anatomy isn't as good or as tight as it used to be. The story telling isn't as well crafted. Perhaps from the artist's POV they feel their work is better but that is often not the case for the fans. And that is very puzzling.
QUOTE:
Neal Adams once said (or it's been attributed to Neal) that, "Your style is everything you do wrong." If that is the case then an artist may have more "style" as a rookie than as a seasoned vet. I can remember being fascinated by certain aspects of artist's work which they ultimately refined and lost from their styles. One artist may have given characters unusually long heads or unusually large feet or hands. Years later those flaws were gone, along with my interest in their work. |
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I don't agree with that quote. I peronaly feel that an artist's style is waht makes him unique and special. What makes him either Great, good, mediocre or bad. For me it all comes down to the style. as to your second point,..,.. point well made,...but again that is not always the case. sometimes it is the other way around. The hands used to be perfectly propotioned and now they are all over the place. sometimes there are more flaws in the later work then the earlier work.
QUOTE:
The thing is--if there's no change--fans grow bored as well. Familiarity breeds contempt. Those aspects that made you love an artist when you were 12 may make you loathe their work at 32. Which leads to a real damned if you do--damned if you don't scenario. If you do improve-- you may lose the fans who loved you for what you were--if you don't improve they may grow bored with you and ridicule you for your faults and how you've stagnated.
I don't know if there is a solution.
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I don't think I agree with this point, (with all due respect of course), I happen to think there is a solution. One that many artists have done quite successfully. I don't know that I agree that when great artists don't change, that their fans grow bored with them. The closest example that I can think of where this might have happened with me, would be John Buscema. but as someone pointed out, though his style never changed his later stuff was more roughs than the detailed pencils in did in the past,...so the comparison isn't exactly fair.
There are artists who have found a wonderful balances of staying true to themselves while growing and expanding their art. John Romita Jr is IMO the perfect example of this. He continualy adapts his art to the generation at hand. He continues to grow, and learn and expirement with his art, yet he never loses the aspects of his art that made us love his work. George Perez is another good example of this. In a recent interview GP talked about a fan calling him a "new" artists whose work he loved. GP has been able to maintain the same level of energy and enthusiasm to his work without really changing his "style". He continualy pushes the envelope while retaining all the things we love about his art.
So IMO the answer is to maintain who you are, maintain the same level of dedication to your work ( I think many artists grow bored and tired and therefore become a bit lazy or complacent about their work), and most importantly continue to learn and to grow. Stay current. IOW keep yourself in the same place you were when you first started.
QUOTE:
I do know that I've come to embrace my own awkwardness and try not to erase and over think what I do. I try not to get in a rut--I strive to find new approaches and challenge myself and struggle to find ways of making things new. But it's not always easy. My hand has a tendency to default to familiar solutions to drawing challenges--to resort to stock hands or poses or faces. As difficult as it was to lay out those early pages--it can be as difficult or more to find new ways of laying out a page--to avoid the rut and try something new--especially with deadlines looming.
The thing is--I can look at any number of artists' work and see the progression and even though I know that later work is superior of a technical level--there's something very visceral, raw and exciting about those artists' earlier work. It's often crude and ugly--but there's an energy there which often gets lost.
In any case-- I thought I'd share and see what your thoughts might be. No need to cite specifics if you're not inclined to offend anybody. And, again, this is not directed at any one individual. |
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I am sorry to say that I no longer read "modern" comics because of frustrations with Marvel and what they've done to the characters I love. Since Marvel was my primary draw to comic buying, loss of interest in marvel has meant loss of interest in current comics in general. anyway, as a whole so I've not seen too much of your later/current work. I was and still am a fan of your however.
I hope this isn't too rude of me, but I must say that Mr. Byrne is one whose work I used to LOVE in the past, but don't feel too hot about his current work. Sorry JB I love you,...
in the 90's I saw some tremendous progession in JB's work. The stuff he did on Superman, and Omac for example were just ridiculously far and away better than his previous work. But at a certain point, that progression seems to have stopped (at least IMO). and the current/later work is simply not as enjoyable to me anymore. I've spent many a nights wondering why "byrne doesn't go back to his old style and blow the new fans away (like Perez has done)."
thank you for making this post,...
Edited by Frantz Kenol on 11 July 2009 at 12:10am
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JT Molloy Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Posts: 2092
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 1:16am | IP Logged | 7
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(To Erik's first post)
This theory is a lot like music too. Many people prefer a band's early
work for a lot of the same reasons.
Maybe it's because I'm an artist, but I notice the progressions and love
them, but I can definitely see every point you've listed as being somewhat
true because at some point I was like that.
I've kinda been on both sides of the fence. I'll use J. Scott Campbell as an
example here. When he did those original Gen 13's, I loved them to death
and then a few years later, Danger Girl had come out and I noticed a
much more "cartoonier" approach to everything and still loved it but
almost cringed at how much his style had changed. I was definitely
feeling that lack of familiarity. Then! as time progressed and I saw him do
more and more things and I got older and studied art a lot, I now vastly
prefer his current style (Wildsiderz and his Marvel covers and such) over
the old Gen 13 years. It's almost hard to look at now in retrospect. Some
characters were too tall at times, had only a short range of emotion,
backgrounds weren't as sharp, ect. ect. I've welcomed progression a lot
more getting older and wiser than I did in my younger years I guess.
(Even though I still vastly prefer sloppy music!)
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Marcel Chenier Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2723
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 2:16am | IP Logged | 8
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Erik,
I really like what you've written. Seems as though you've put a lot of thought
into it and I have to say that most of what you've written resonates with me.
Of course, there's so much more to be said, but your main idea(s) come
across very well.
Kudos to you for writing on this difficult subject (and so well).
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John Benson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1070
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 9
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Someone did a survey of baseball players, looking over their records to find out when they had their peak years. The vast majority of the time, it was when they were 27.
A number of factors played into that age. Their bodies hadn't begun to break down yet, they were (on the average) in the bigs long enough to learn their position and for most it was just before they were to get a new contract (Most signed at the same age, and so would be covered for the same length of contract)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133551
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 10
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The thing is--if there's no change--fans grow bored as well. Familiarity breeds contempt. Those aspects that made you love an artist when you were 12 may make you loathe their work at 32. Which leads to a real damned if you do--damned if you don't scenario. If you do improve-- you may lose the fans who loved you for what you were--if you don't improve they may grow bored with you and ridicule you for your faults and how you've stagnated. I don't know if there is a solution. •• How about focusing on being the best artist you can possibly be, and not worrying about what other people think? ++ I do know that I've come to embrace my own awkwardness and try not to erase and over think what I do. I try not to get in a rut--I strive to find new approaches and challenge myself and struggle to find ways of making things new. But it's not always easy. •• If it was, it wouldn't be a "challenge", would it?
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 11
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One of the interesting aspects of this topic is why the problem seems to
be much more prominent with some artists than others, although we
don't always agree as to a particular artist. (Another, of course, is to what
extent the phenomenon is real, and to what extent it is simply in the eye
of the beholder. I think, as many of the above comments suggest, that it
can be either or both).
A few observations: comic artists differ somewhat from other artists,
because for many of them, including the best, their interest is very much
not in drawing per se, but in telling the story. As they get older, there's
often less interest in things like careful anatomy and rendering than in
youth. In some ways, these are more mechanical skills. I think the classic
exemplar of this is Steve Ditko. There's almost a loving attention to
muscles, etc., on his first round of Captain Atom. Look at the collection
of Amazing Adult Fantasy, where even his simplest tales include some
amazing brushwork--rendering of old men's faces, beards, mirrors,
objects, etc. In his later work, rendering seems to interest him hardly at
all. But one sees it to some extent in others as well. Meskin, Kirby even
before physical problems took a toll on his art, Infantino. I think that's
also true of Eisner. Although at his death his work was as sophisticated
as ever, right from the time of his return on the Harvey Spirit, it didn't
have quite the same power to me, and that's true of virtually all the
covers for Warren and Kitchen Sink, his new books, and specialty
drawings that he did, recently collected in the last of the DC Spirit
volumes. The interest in brush work and rendering, the rich contrast of
black and white, wasn't quite there anymore. He arguably gained in
subtlety, but lost something, I think, in power. I mention his later work
on the Spirit because one could attribute the change in his non-Spirit
work to conscious artistic choice, adjustment to the new material he
tackled later on, and while there's truth in that, it doesn't account for the
change in his Spirit work.
For some artists, I think changes I see for what I regard as the worse are
related to changes in technology. A lot of artists who started with brush
have switched to some form of magic markers. Some of them are quite
skilled with them--I think here of JB, Neal Adams and a few others, but
others can't quite manage the range of effects they pulled off with
brushes.
Coloring has changed a lot, also, and I sometimes think that artists are
adjusting for the new coloring styles in ways that aren't always pleasing
to me.
It's interesting to note that well into his career, Kane spent time drawing
from the live model, as, judging from his upcoming book, did Kubert.
The human figure is infinitely subtle, and continued drawing from life
may serve to focus attention and care on that factor, even when drawing
from imagination and memory. It's quite clear that Kubert's comics aren't
based on live models or photographs. Thus, life drawing may be one
means of fighting the tendency to simply generalize figures.
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Scott O'Malley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 July 2009 Posts: 74
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Posted: 11 July 2009 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 12
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this is a perfect post... for Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon message board... although there it would be more difficult to try to get under JB's skin, wouldn't it...
titling the post 'your older stuff was better"... can you ever just move along Erik. Many of us like this board and interacting with JB... I'd hate for him to abandon it because of some stupid gameplaying...
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