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B J Mayer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 March 2009 Posts: 201
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 1
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"Maybe the reason, every pose appeared iconic was because there were a limited bank from which they were drawn. Perhaps there reason there are less now is because there are more natural poses drawn from a larger bank?"
I would like to flip this one more way. Perhaps why they appeared more iconic was because there were a limited mental bank on which I could compare those poses.
As we grow older and see more of the world, I think we tarnish the luster of parts of our world and they no longer hold the wonderment they once did.
My 3-year-old got a strong of beads at the 4th of July parade. He swings them by his hand, he uses them in his games, he plays Iron Man with them. He will hold onto the beads and just twirl them. They are amazing to him, and I love watching, but soon he will find something else and the beads will be discarded, even though they haven't changed.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6025
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 2
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I ge that BJ Mayer but isn't that just a mater of taste! What we like now, isn't necessarily what we'll like in the future.
Surely this has to already be factored into the equation? As an artist develop, there are going to be a natural fall away of their audience due to, taste, Death's and various outside factors. But does the evolution of the artist drive people away? So, becoming a better artist is a double edged sword. You are a better craftsperson but you're preaching to a diminishing core group. Let's call it a "half-life", which is dependant on your intiial jumping on point with the artist.
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Jason Bitael Byrne Robotics Member
AKA Mike Keane
Joined: 20 March 2009 Posts: 141
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 3
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"Because as bad as his art was, it kept getting worse, he is famous for
swiping, he has failed to deliver on solicited comics so many times and"
I won't defend Rob Liefeld because compared to my favorite artist, John Byrne, Rob Liefelds art is just amateur at best. But someone hired him. Even though I have never and most likely will never work in comics and have no idea how things are done, I'm pretty sure that Liefeld didn't storm the offices of Marvel or DC and put a gun to anyone's head to give him a job. Why not blame the guy/gal that gave him work to begin with?
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 4
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"Why not blame the guy/gal that gave him work to begin with?"
You mean us, the fans? Yeah, I was a big idiot for buying New Mutants and X-Force.
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Jason Bitael Byrne Robotics Member
AKA Mike Keane
Joined: 20 March 2009 Posts: 141
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:11am | IP Logged | 5
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No, I mean the person who hired him.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 6
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What that person saw in Liefeld is a mystery, but what the fans saw is an even greater mystery
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 7
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"Why not blame the guy/gal that gave him work to begin with?"
Do you suggest that we should blame the editors who saw potential in him and gave him work as a substitute for criticizing Liefeld for the things he did which he was responsible for?
In that case, shouldn't we also refrain from praising JB's work and instead give credit to the editors who had the foresight to give him his first pro assignments in in comics? Hey, great work on that Angel mini series, Nicola Cuti! Way to go!
Liefeld was given breaks on low-tier work. Once he started to sell, the actual quality of his work was irrelevant to the editors. That's how it is in the entire entertainment industry. What the fans want, the fans get. That he sustained his work by swiping is on him, that his work went in all kinds of wrong directions and he continued to swipe after getting called on it was on him. Soliciting work that was never sold when he was in charge of his own studio was on him.
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Jason Bitael Byrne Robotics Member
AKA Mike Keane
Joined: 20 March 2009 Posts: 141
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 8
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That was my point. If said editor saw that he was swiping, or tracing or that his art just didn't hold up, Why keep him? Like I said, I am not defending Rob Liefeld. I have never liked his work, and the first time I saw it was the issue of New Mutants where he swiped the splash page by Frank Miller from Ronin. It's sad if editors just ignored it because of high sales, but high sales don't always equal quality to me.
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Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 9
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The fact that Rob Liefeld got work and Herb trimpe didn`t
get work says a lot about editors, don`t you think? It
says
a lot about fans too who seem to prefer grotesque
distortions to faithful and imaginative representations.
And, Hell, maybe Liefeld was perceived as someone to
admire by the fans. His boyish good looks, carefree
attitude, anti-establishment demeanour.
Remember that for most of the industry's lifetime,
creators operated outside of the limelight, with only the
work to speak for itself. John Byrne was the first
"celebrity" to really gain a public face but it was a
face that spoke of hard work, dedication, and respect for
the craft: Old fashioned in the eyes of the young.
Liefeld's public face was move accessible in that it
spoke of a facile approach to life in general. If Liefeld
didn't get his work in, in time, so what? he still got
rewarded. He became the poster boy for success with
little skill and no dedication: The new COKE-LIGHT
version of the American Dream for a growingly decadent
western culture.
Should have been predictable really, even if you don't
read Gibbon.
Edited by Jesus Garcia on 14 July 2009 at 8:50am
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 10
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I'm not sure Liefeld did any swiping early in his career. His early work (HAWK & DOVE) allegedly showed promise and he had Karl Kesel to help him.
I don't particularly see it, but if I hadn't known any better, I might have seen it then.
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Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 11
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You are a better craftsperson but you're preaching to a diminishing core group.
I dunno, I figure once you're a true fan, you'd find something to enjoy in a given artist's work despite any evolution. Even in the example I mentioned awhile back (Trevor Von Eeden), I still found things to appreciate in his 'new' style.
I'd assume that pro artists aren't too concerned about folk who get easily bored of their work or who aren't willing to follow said artist's 'growth'.
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Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
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Posted: 14 July 2009 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 12
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That's the work that initally attracted my eye to Liefeld.
It showed promise.
Didn't know it actually showed Kesel's ability to make silk
out of a sow's ears.
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