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William Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 165
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 1
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I like seeing the wrinkles and stitching in the costumes sometimes, so that the costumes don't look painted on the body instead of a body wearing them. But a good artist should be able to keep that painted on look from happening while still protraying a sense of granduer and awe in the hero.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 6:54am | IP Logged | 2
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We live in a world of folds, creases, wrinkles and stitching. But, for the most part, superheroes do not.When I started writing and drawing FANTASTIC FOUR I gave them folds and wrinkles in their uniforms, because that was how Kirby had originally drawn them, and altho that had faded with time (along with the character's more realistic physiques), it seemed to me a better "fit" for what the FF were all about. It seemed somehow more practical. But characters like Batman, Superman, Green Lantern -- the whole DC roster, in fact, were not drawn with wrinkles and creases and stitching. And this is where we come to the whole "Look at all the words I know" problem. Alex Ross paints Batman with visible seams and stitching on his cape and cowl. Because, what? Bruce Wayne couldn't afford to get it done properly? It makes a kind of sense for Spider-Man's costume to be wrinkled and even a little baggy (tho, importantly, Steve Ditko never drew it that way -- not the "real" one, anyway), but does it make sense for Batman? For Superman? Even for the original X-Men, whose whole operation is funded by the seemingly bottomless coffers of Charles Xavier? It comes back to the same point I have made when people try to show us how clever they are by referring to the costumes as being "Spandex". Again, yes, Spider-Man might very well be wearing a Spandex costume, since it's home-made, and he had very limited resources.* But who else would be wearing Spandex? Not the FF, their costumes are Unstable Molecules™. So, according to Chris, are those of the X-Men. Green Lantern's uniform is of alien origin, and apparently capable of tailoring itself to the wearer, no matter what shape s/he/it might happen to have (the ultimate "one size fits all"). The Flash wears a costume that can be compressed into a ring worn on his finger. The Atom's costume is "dwarf star material". Thor is a god!! Bottom line -- when the artists start in with the folds and creases and wrinkles and stitching, are they really thinking about what they're portraying, rather than how they are portraying it?
*As he has said several times, Sam Raimi gave us biological webbing in the Spider-Man movies because he could not have made those mechanical webshooters when he was sixteen, so his quest for "believability" would not allow for the suggestion that Peter Parker could. However, he had no problem with Parker's home-made costume being something it cost the movie studio $100,000 a pop to produce. As a 16 year old film-fan Raimi would have died to have had such a suit, so of course his quest for "believability" went into suspension on that issue.** And, it should be noted, the result was probably the best translation of a superhero costume to the live action form that we have seen to date. But not something 16 year old Peter Parker could have made from stuff he found around the house!
** (Yes, a footnote within a footnote!) None of my civilian friends have ever expressed the least shadow of disbelief over Parker's ability to produce (in multiple iterations!) this costume. They buy it as part of the whole mythology. I wonder how many people would really have marched out of the theater proclaiming that the tale of a lad bitten by a genetically engineered spider, who then goes on to don a colorful costume and fight supervillains, was "unbelievable" because of mechanical webshooters?
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Andrew Burton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 116
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:05am | IP Logged | 3
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I like this thread. I am a huge fan of the Neal Adams school of comic art. That Batman page JB posted is just great!
What does everyone think of Gary Frank's Superman work?
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William Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 165
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:09am | IP Logged | 4
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Here is an example of what I don't like. The costume would have to either be painted on or somehow vaccum sealed onto his body to show all those features and muscle definitons. There is no mass to the costume, and the trunks look like they don;t take up any mass over the blue part of his costume. Even the belt.
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Andrew Burton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 116
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 5
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Then apparently you don't like what Neal Adams does because he draws costumes the same way, basically painted on, JB draws them that way too, which I like.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 6
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Here is an example of what I don't like.
••
Then I fear you simply don't get it.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17700
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 7
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Superman's "S" looks a little off to me, an that big chunk of black on his left
arm seems out of place, but I don't see a problem with the way the uniform
fits.
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Joe Hollon
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13704
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 8
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In a vacuum that image posted above (Jim Lee?) looks ok to me. The problem is it represents about the best we can hope for in mainstream comics today: a shot of a group of heroes standing around grimacing.
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William Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 165
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 9
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To me this looks better, the costumes are tight but they don't show every single definition of the wearer like the Superman and Batman from the Jim Lee picture.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 10
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To me this looks better, the costumes are tight but they don't show every single definition of the wearer like the Superman and Batman from the Jim Lee picture. •• Jim Lee, at the point in his career at which he drew that image with Superman, was a much better artist than I was at the point in my career that I drew that shot of Alpha Flight. I can't even begin to count the number of things wrong with my drawing. What you are saying, unfortunately, is that you prefer bad art. For a better representation of my work as I intend it to be, look HERE.
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William Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 165
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 11
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In the picture you link to, the trunks and belt actually have mass to them and the costumes look like they are actually being worn, not painted on. Yeah, the costumes show definition, which is fine, but the Lee picture looks to me like Superman has blue skin.
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Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2207
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 12
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Bad art is hard to define unless you have a agreed upon goal, ie photo
realism. William likes what he likes.
I know that others will post something to effect that no there is such a thing
as good and bad art, that art is not subjective but has definable quality
beyond aesthetic preferences. We will have to agree to disagree.
Unless you refuse to agree to disagree with me, in which case we agree.
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Topic Closed)
