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Paul Greer
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Joined: 18 August 2004
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 1  

I am very late to this discussion. I recall when JB left X-Men to go to FF. I thought it was a mistake. FF was a lame title (my opinion before I ever saw any of Stan and Jack's run) that was a step down for JB. He made me a fan and proved me wrong. Then he created Alpha Flight and made it a hit. (A claim no other artist can claim. Mignola and Jim Lee included.) He then moved to Superman which was another "lame" book in my opinion. (I was a mean kid.) He made it cool and popular. Then when he moved back to Marvel and started doing "B-List" books I was then used to the idea that Byrne would go to a title that needed a boost or create a new series that would help Marvel or DC's bottom line. X-Men and the others were selling well. Moving JB back into one of those books might not have helped Marvel increase sales across the board. But having him do smaller selling books like West Coast Avengers could. Plus by creating new series like She-Hulk and Namor it also helped Marvel across the board.

Erik Larsen has done the same thing. He and the momentum of Image made Savage Dragon a hit in the early 90's. He came back to Marvel and DC and worked on Defenders and Aquaman. I never looked at that as any step down. I thought that he was adding his name to titles that may not be a big seller and hope to make them rise into another hit.

I find the approach of using ones star power to help out a smaller title more admirable than just riding the wave of popularity. Which is easier to maintain if you move from hot title to hot title. I would not, however, call it a step down. It's the comic book version of Pay It Forward. I'm actually shocked when someone like Erik, who has done the same thing in the comic business, make such a claim.

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Jeremiah Avery
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 2  

Marvel was listed recently as one of the top companies in terms of licensing and branding of their IP.  Not sure if they'll ever be at where Disney is, but they seem to be making strides in diversifying the outlets for their products.

If you look at the Vertigo books over at DC, the tpbs earn more than the single issues.  So the individual issues are basically loss leaders.

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Dave Aikins
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 3  

The deadline aspect has nothing to do with Monthly, and everything to do with the publishers. Killing the monthlies will only lead to late trades. It's about creating an industry where your sellers opperate on a scheduled-sales basis. If something is late, they suffer. How could anyone believe that this would be solved by trades? The trades will just be late.
It might be eaasier to move release dates around with trades (like movies or cd's sometimes do), but most comics publishers just don't seem to have the "balls" to enforce strict deadlines. This might not matter to fans, but it does to retailers... Maybe some of the editors should try working for newspapers...
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Jeremiah Avery
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 4  

If you like the character(s), buy the book.  There shouldn't be a ranking of titles.  Some A-List books may have "top" characters, but the content is subpar.  With some of the perceived lower tier books, some professionals have said that they are more free to tell certain stories rather than be tightly bound to a crossover or lengthy continuity of a major title/character.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 5  

Erik Larsen has done the same thing. He and the momentum of Image made Savage Dragon a hit in the early 90's. He came back to Marvel and DC and worked on Defenders and Aquaman. I never looked at that as any step down.

••

Yet, according to Larsen's own definitions in describing my career choices, after self-publishing DRAGON and working on SPIDER-MAN, the Defenders and Aquaman would be a huge step down.

Or is it wrong to apply to Larsen's work the same "rules" he applies to others?

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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 6  

I think that's extremely optimistic, but I'll bite.  Why do you think the number of people reading comics is on the upswing?

The number of people reading comics, period, is picking up when you factor in things like webcomics, manga, comics circulated through libraries, trades sold in chain bookstores, and other methods of distribution that were non-existent or underutilized until recently. 

People still love comics.  There's no shortage of people making their own comics, or kids who enjoy the format, or adults who are willing to check out interesting graphic novels that they read about in Time magazine.  What people don't love, apparently, is paying for content, which is a problem that every single entertainment medium (with the possible exception of video games, which must be harder to pirate than everything else) is dealing with right now. 

There will always be comics readers, and comics creators.  The person that's endangered right now, though, is the comics customer.
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Steve Lieber
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 7  

The whole "a-List" "b-list" thing is buying in to a class system that the comics-biz ought to be subverting.

One of the worst things I've ever seen in this business was at a convention in Philly in the 90s. Whoever published the program actually had the audacity to rank the guests: A, B, C, or D, according to their importance, or the desirability of their autograph or something. It was appalling. Some wag with a button maker printed up little letter badges  and handed them out so C and D listers could wear their ignominity with pride.


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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 8  

Chris: It might be a bit of a shock to the system to those 75,000 but most will move over to the trades if they really want to continue reading.  Although it's a different medium, people have made the change from Vinyl to 8-track to cassette to CD to Digital.  

It's all music. 


***

That change is totally different.  First and foremost, there were/are millions of music customers vs. a few thousand aging comics fans. 

If those last few readers should get unhappy, disturbed by the inevitable scheduling snafus, or drop reading for any other reason (old-age?)-- there isn't any influx of readers to take their place.

The switch to an all TPB market will be the last gasp of this industry of serialized mass-market super-hero adventures. 

There may always be "comics", but that's more a technicality than a victory cry.
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Jamie Coville
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 9  

This months sales figures are down quite a bit from normal. A number of the top selling books did not come out (which relates to this thread I guess). Also due to A) the economy and B) the recent Marvel Price increase from 2.99 to 3.99 has hurt sales.

But yes, a large number of readers (myself being one of them) have stopped buying comics and buy TPBs exclusively. I don't think traditional comic sales will ever go back to the levels they once were, with the exception of spikes on certain event books.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 10  

Jerimiah:Marvel was listed recently as one of the top companies in terms of licensing and branding of their IP.  Not sure if they'll ever be at where Disney is, but they seem to be making strides in diversifying the outlets for their products.

If you look at the Vertigo books over at DC, the tpbs earn more than the single issues.  So the individual issues are basically loss leaders.

***

The test isn't how their growth happens to be now, but in the long run. They had a couple hit movies.  So did Lionsgate, CastleRock, Orion, New World, and a long long list of other movie studios that are now bankrupt. Not every Marvel movie is going to do Iron Man business-- and every one that tanks will effectively ruin that property.  No one wants to buy Daredevil dolls and Punisher toys.

Disney was always diversifying -- not just its list of characters and properties, but its way of exploiting the wholesome "DISNEY" label.  The invention of the theme-park really saved the company, but none of that would have been possible if Disney didn't fiercely protect its brand, its "on-model" designs and writing, its all-ages approach to the market, and a lot of other horse-sense which Ma***l has seen as "unnecessary concerns".

Marvel's relatively short-term success does not impress me because they don't seem to know where they are going, why their brands have endured this long, and what will keep them appealing in the long run.

I think their tolerant embrace of "rose growers" speaks to their judgment.  Its a dance with the devil, not a business plan.



Edited by Mark Haslett on 16 June 2009 at 4:09pm
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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 11  

Thanks Mark.
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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 16 June 2009 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 12  

 John Byrne wrote:

Erik Larsen has done the same thing. He and the momentum of Image
made Savage Dragon a hit in the early 90's. He came back to Marvel and
DC and worked on Defenders and Aquaman. I never looked at that as any
step down.
••

Yet, according to Larsen's own definitions in describing my career
choices, after self-publishing DRAGON and working on SPIDER-MAN, the
Defenders and Aquaman would be a huge step down.

Or is it wrong to apply to Larsen's work the same "rules" he applies to
others?


Rules apply across the board. At no point did I say or even imply that I
was somehow immune to those rules. If you were considering a second
career as a mindreader, you might want to reconsider.

Savage Dragon started off as a top ten book but is very much a B-List
book at this point. Even though it's never been cancelled and is the
second-longest running title at Image, its sales level makes it very much
a B-list title.

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