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Topic: Growing Roses and Meeting Deadlines (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 1  

"It's fascinating to me that two artists with fundamentally different styles could make almost exactly the same decisions in posing a scene like this."

Well, not so much. Kirby's pose is of course slightly different from both, but that has to do with Kirby's style, the bulk of Thor's frame and characterization of Odin. In the Pieta, the face of the person holding the dead is turned upwards towards God as master of life and death. Odin is that God in norse mythology, and as such would not turn his face heavenwards.

So, in the Perez and Byrne poses, the face turned upwards is a trait of the pieta, the expression of grief is obvious. The male figure standing denotes masculine power, as opposed to sitting figures. Female figures generally sit in the Pieta. The body is being held up, "shown to God" in an expression of "why?" in this position the body of the dead woman must be held under the knees and shoulderblades for the best possible grip. Being dead, the body is limp, hence the arm and head dangling.

Each choice is natural and in character, within the styles of both men and showing an understanding of anatomy and characterization that both artists have shown before these works. There are also not very many other ways of showing a standing Pieta.

The resemblance between the two pieces isn't that strange, and the pose is so well suited to the characters and the situation that it seems strange that one would even think of it as a swipe. Add to this the fact that Pietas are (in fine art) a type of stock poses, which as I've argued previously are exempt from "swiping" descriptions.

Ooops. long winded again.

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Joe Smith
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 2  

but very informative, thank you.
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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 3  

Attention, masochists!

Here's a collection of RL swipes.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 4  

That's the link I posted, Flavio.
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Ray Brady
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 5  

"In the Pieta, the face of the person holding the dead is turned upwards
towards God as master of life and death."
-----
That's not by any means a rule. Take a look at the links Matt Hawes
provided, and you'll see a pretty even split between heads held down, heads
tilted up, and heads looking somewhere else. Heck, even Michaelangelo's
Pieta, the most famous example I know, has Mary's head tilted down.

So once again, it's an artistic choice. I simply find it interesting that Byrne
and Perez made almost all of the same choices in these examples.
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Bryan White
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 6  

oh   Batman 56 (on the covers page) is my first comic ever.  My dad bought it for me when I had the chicken pox.  I still have it. 

edited to add: the comic not the C. pox.


Edited by Bryan White on 13 June 2009 at 9:11pm
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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | 7  

If we start counting photos tracing as swipes, we should caal out all the current hot artists in DC and Marvel. After all, it doesn't matter it's a well-known photo-shot, does it?
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 8  

"That's not by any means a rule. Take a look at the links Matt Hawes
provided, and you'll see a pretty even split between heads held down, heads
tilted up, and heads looking somewhere else. "

You're right. I was too insistent that it was the way to express the Pieta, There are different ways to show it, with different ways to interpret it. The downward gaze is one of grief and acceptance, one might say "this is what happened", while the upward pose that Perez and Byrne use is one of grief, anger or denial "why did this happen".

I'm over-interpreting, I know.

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JT Molloy
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 9  

There's a difference between google image searching celebrities and
shoehorning whatever pose they're in into the story (and sometimes not
bothering to keep even haircuts consistent between panels) and what
someone like Alex Ross does. He made MARVELS by using photos he
himself took of live models and objects. What this does is give the artist
control over how he/she wants something framed, or how the character
will emote.

Sometimes I'll see a shot of a girl giving the "uh DUUUUH" look on her
face and the script will be having her say something that clearly doesn't
match. If you use your own photo reference, or at least have the skills to
alter what you're taking reference from to the point where it's still you
dictating the composition/expression and not the other way around, then
it's fine.
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Arc Carlton
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 1:25am | IP Logged | 10  

That's the link I posted, Flavio.

____________________________

You can never enough of those links...

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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 5:40am | IP Logged | 11  

JT, Liefeld made a freakin' pin up /cover / whatever using the Leticia Casta photo reference! Greg Horn has done it many times over, so has Land and I don't know how many others.
As for the artists taking photos and using them, I don't have very much respect for those. Especially not when all they do is this (Maleev is the prime example). Epting may be using photos the past few years, but he sure as heck knows how to draw comics without them!!!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 5:47am | IP Logged | 12  

Sometimes I'll see a shot of a girl giving the "uh DUUUUH" look on her face and the script will be having her say something that clearly doesn't match. If you use your own photo reference, or at least have the skills to alter what you're taking reference from to the point where it's still you dictating the composition/expression and not the other way around, then it's fine.

••

Working on the STAR TREK books for IDW, I am finding myself unable to completely avoid occasional likenesses. Fortunately, Paramount is good about letting me go "generic" on some characters, as with young "Number One" and Christopher Pike in CREW, but when it comes to, say, Shatner, I have to be closer to the mark. Fortunately, TREKCore.com provides almost frame by frame shots from every TOS episode, making it possible to find exactly the shot I need.

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