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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 276
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 1
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Hmmmm.
When Jim Lee & Rob Liefeld "returned" to Marvel with the Heroes Reborn storyline, weren't certain creative teams shunted aside from Fantastic Four, Avengers, Iron Man, & Captain America?
There was a big "stink" about Captain America especially, IIRC. That creative team was doing a damn fine job.
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John Farnham
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 March 2009
Posts: 300
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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Honestly, only industry insiders like Larsen and Byrne, should be commenting on what's true or not true in relation to what happened during the Image genesis. If you work in radio, newspapers, TV, accounting, etc, everything you know is just fan propaganda -- maybe just sit back and read and learn from the proverbial horses mouths. Also, since Larsen is the big cheese over at Image, I'm thinking his remarks hold a little more credibility that some others. I also am enjoying the jabs Larsen and Byrne are taking at each other, they're funny. I don't find them disrepectful since I would hope both parties are just venting "respectfully" as creators and as fans of the medium.
(note: I've got a lot of people on IGNORE here since most of their posts are always stupid -- so I'm assuming many of the quotes Larsen is pulling are being pulled in context)
Keep on swinging Erik, I'm agreeing with most of your posts so far. I'm glad another version of events is being aired. I'm sorry I've never really been an Image fan, but I know many who are.
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Rick Senger
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9705
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 3
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When Jim Lee & Rob Liefeld "returned" to Marvel with the Heroes Reborn storyline, weren't certain creative teams shunted aside from Fantastic Four, Avengers, Iron Man, & Captain America?
*****
Erik wasn't arguing that they were mistreated by Marvel on their return post-Image. His point was that they had no guarantee how they would be treated by Marvel when they left given the history of how other artists were treated when they left Marvel previously. Whatever my opinion of the merits of the output of IMAGE creators, I think it's ridiculous to claim they weren't taking a chance when they put it together. Others tried the independent publishing route (Grell, Wood, Kirby and Adams for starters) and had mixed sales results to say the least. The people who put IMAGE together definitely took a chance and had no guarantees. For whatever reason (timing? kismet?) they wound up making a ton of money over the course of a short span.
You can argue the quality of their product (what I saw didn't interest me so I bought little) but you can't argue that before the first issues of SPAWN and YOUNGBLOOD, etal sold big numbers that they weren't sticking their necks out. They left safe, highly profitable gigs at established companies to try their hands independently. While they were all popular, the history of independent publishing up to that point suggested it was a risky move.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133576
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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His point was that they had no guarantee how they would be treated by
Marvel when they left given the history of how other artists were treated
when they left Marvel previously.
••
Like Steve Gerber, who sued Marvel, and was welcomed back?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | 5
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And it's doubtful that we would have been given back the gigs we left. I'm
sure we could have found something to do but there was no guarantee
that those would have been decent books--most likely we'd be stuck on
a third tier book like Namor, She-Hulk or the West Coast Avengers--you
know, the types of books they give to guys who left them in the lurch.
••
You would have gotten books you asked for, you mean?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 6
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I'm glad another version of events is being aired.
••
Pity it's only that, another version, and not reality.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 7
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There was a big "stink" about Captain America especially, IIRC. That creative
team was doing a damn fine job.
••
Just terrible how Liefeld was treated on his return, wasn't it. You want
CAPTAIN AMERICA? Sure! Let us just fire the guys currently on the
title. . .
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10942
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 8
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Jason H: "Wow that is a bold statement especially considering that
everyone of those titles were better than anything you have ever done."
****
I agree - that's what I thought when reading Erik's comments. "Namor",
"She-Hulk" and "Avengers West Coast" are really excellent runs, and even
at the time I was glad JB was trying something new. I was resistant to the
idea of "She-Hulk", but once I saw JB's "take" on it I was sold. It was a
sense of humor I hadn't seen in comic books and didn't realize JB had in
his toolbox. "Namor" gave new life to a character I had no interest in.
And "Avengers West Coast" really broke some new ground with the Vision
storyline. I thought these three titles were creative steps forward in JB's
development and I still enjoy the hell out of them.
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 9
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Wasn't Malibu also Eternity? It's not like they were swimming in dough before Image. They had no professional artists. Pretty much all they had going for them was Ninja Highschool which was gone a bit later and the only book they published color for as far as I remember.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31290
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | 10
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Erik Larsen wrote:
| they took on the most popular creators in the industry |
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There's no way Jim Valentino was one of the most popular creators in the industry. Sure, his GOTG was selling ok, but in no way was he even in the same league as the rest of you. I long wondered why he was even included in the founding of the company.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133576
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 11
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You must understand ImageSpeak, Brian!
They were champions of creators rights!
They struck out boldly onto unexplored seas!
They changed the face of comics forever!
(And please ignore the man behind the curtain.)
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2217
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 12
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OK, time for me to break out the facts.
1. Except for the first few issues of Youngblood,Wildcats, and Spawn, Image was not kicking Marvel's butt in sales.
2. I don't ever recall reading or hear about JB complaining or saying that he was denied the opportunity to work on Marvel books that he used to work on. IIRC, JB never even asked to return to those books he used work on before he left Marvel.
3. In terms of the Image boys creating original characters and concepts BWAHAHAHA. Savage Dragon is the Hulk with a fin and is a police officer like the original Human Torch. Spawn is an amalgamation of Devil Slayer,Cloak,Venom (which Todd did not create),the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider,Moon Knight,and the Spectre. Youngblood was one part Avengers,one part X-Force,and one part X-Factor (when the team worked for the government). Shadowhawk was another masked non powered urban crimefighter. Wildcats were the X-Men.
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Topic Closed)
