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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 10 April 2009 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 1
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Even John Byrne. I'd asked him at some point about perhaps doing a one-shot or something, and in his characteristically caustic way, he stood there in the halls of DC and proclaimed that he would be glad to draw The Flash as soon as the real one comes back."
Yeh, again, just because JB, a living legend in the business, gives Waid a little jab about what he perceives as an editorial mistake, suddenly Waid uses that to indicate how behind the times JB and anyone else who's a Barry Allen Flash fan...is.
Of course the caustic nature of the comment must mean Waid was right!
Edited by Chad Carter on 10 April 2009 at 6:19pm
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3117
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| Posted: 10 April 2009 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'm trying to remember the last time books had as many as 9 many panels. I think the most recent books I have are Watchmen, and Peter Bagge comics. There was a point when the Image revolution all but guaranteed a one- to three-panel page. Harvey Kurtzman used the 9-panel grid a lot -- it's great to see what a good cartoonist can do with the rhythms and the content.
Speaking of comics from 1985, I was re-reading The Dark Knight recently, and I was amazed by the standard 16-panel grid Miller used. He communicated an enormous amount of information. Later comics in the "prestige" format never felt as satisfying, and I bet that density was a big reason why (aside from Miller, obviously).
I feel like there's a ridiculously pointy-headed question to be asked in all of this.
JB, do you have any favorite stories, either that you worked on or that you've read, that you felt were particularly effective examples of panel structure?
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Mike Farley
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 10 April 2009 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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Much of the Giffen 5-years-later LSH was done in a nine panel grid.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 4:44am | IP Logged | 4
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I'm trying to remember the last time books had as many as 9 many panels. I
think the most recent books I have are Watchmen, and Peter Bagge comics.
••
I've played with nine panel pages in recent years. Sometimes more. Mostly I
seem to hit around six or seven.
Bottom line, action should dictate panel count, not the other way 'round.
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Chris Geary
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 January 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1158
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 5:02am | IP Logged | 5
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I would assume that one of the reasons that the nine panel grid came about was a way to get as much story on the page as possbile. I think that there were some occasions where panels were pre-printed so that the artist didn't have a choice.
I know that at one point EC put all the lettering in first before anything was drawn. But I think that's more to do with speeding up the art side of things.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 6:24am | IP Logged | 6
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The earliest comic books were reprints of the Sunday newspaper sections, "The Comics" (or "Funnies", which is why comic books are also sometimes called "funny books").Newspaper comics had to be printed on strict grids, to allow editors at various newspapers to reformat them to fit their needs. This often included many Sundays having a small gag or feature next to the title, separate from the page as a whole, so the whole top tier could be dropped. Because of the rigid format of the Sundays, when comics began publishing original material, they initially followed the grid established by their newspaper forefathers. It took a while for comicbook artists to appreciate the scope of their new medium, and begin experimenting with splash pages, unconventional panel layouts and even double-page spreads. Some editors clung to the grid longer than others. As a kid, one of the things I most enjoyed about the British comics I read was that artists like Frank Bellamy would play fast and loose with the panel layouts. It was also one of the things that set Joe Kubert apart from the crowd, in my eyes. But even as late as the 1980s, Jim Shooter was actively discouraging panel layouts that strayed from the 4/6/8/9 grid. Sometimes, the demands of the job dictated the grid. Jack Kirby, who had been quite innovative in his panel layouts in the 1940s -- he even managed to fit in the occasional ROUND panel! -- retreated to the grid when he returned to Marvel and became to go-to guy, producing as many as ten books a month. No time to be innovative when you're cranking out that much product! When he pulled back, and reduced the number of titles, he allowed himself more leeway. (And, of course, there is the legendary story of Kirby asking for a raise, and the powers that were telling him no, but it was okay for him to draw less per page, so he could produce more pages at the same rate. This, it is said, gave birth to the single-panel double-page spreads, the splash pages, and the four panel grid he came to use more and more.) Meanwhile, people like Neal Adams had come on the scene, and panel layouts began to tilt and twirl and dance around the page -- tho often at the expense of clarity of storytelling. In the end, it is the artist's choice, of course, what sort of panel layout or grid s/he uses -- but one thing remains true: any layout that defeats the intrinsic virtues the form has to offer is probably not a good idea.
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Dave Phelps
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 7
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Stephen Robinson wrote:
| The weird thing is that the Wally West FLASH could have been done with Barry. You basically have him exit CRISIS significantly slower than he was before (running at the speed of sound), so the legend he has to measure up against is his own! You also have him dealing with his identity now being public and with his financial issues, post the trial. |
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Maybe, but what would be the point? Aside from the problem that "finally making the role your own" is more triumphant (for lack of a better term) than "re-achieving your former glories," if you're going far enough afield of the character as it currently stands, why not recast the role? I know comic stories don't have to end, but I also don't see what's wrong with letting a character's story come to a close once in awhile.
Especially in this case - Barry gets to have a happy ending (reuniting with Iris) for those who prefer that, an heroic ending (Crisis #8) for those who prefer that, and overall gets upgraded to be the official Saint of the DCU. Best of all, he gets to stay as he was for the fans who loved him rather than get stuck in some weird revamp in the hopes of "modernizing him for a new audience." And thanks to untold tales and time travel, he's available for future stories whenever needed.
Meanwhile, Wally gets the very unique job of being the sidekick who has to take over the main job. Never been done before or since. Younger fans get to see some actual "firsts."
It's just hard for me to see the downside here.
(Heck, if Showcase #4 had consisted of Jay getting a new outfit, it would be an easier transition than going from Pre-Crisis Flash to Post-Crisis Flash. How come no one ever brings that up?)
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 8
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I'm trying to remember the last time books had as many as 9 many panels. I
think the most recent books I have are Watchmen, and Peter Bagge comics.
*********************
Seems like there were plenty of 9-panel pages in Perez's JLA/ Avengers series.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 9
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Heck, if Showcase #4 had consisted of Jay getting a new outfit, it would be
an easier transition than going from Pre-Crisis Flash to Post-Crisis Flash.
How come no one ever brings that up?
••
In 1956 it had been about 7 years since the last Jay Garrick adventure had
been seen. The five year turnover, on average, meant that practically none
of the fans who had read Jay's last adventure read Barry's first.
You can be sure National got a few letters from people saying "Howcum you
didn't just bring Jay back?" and you can be equally sure they dealt with thim
in the traditional manner of the time -- they ignored them. Which, a few
years later, they unfortunately didn't do when a few people wrote in
demanding the new Hawkman get wings on his helmet.
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Ray Brady
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 10
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"Which, a few years later, they unfortunately didn't do when a few people wrote in demanding the new Hawkman get wings on his helmet."
-----
No kidding? I've never heard that one.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 11
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Meanwhile, Wally gets the very unique job of being the sidekick who has to
take over the main job. Never been done before or since. Younger fans get
to see some actual "firsts."
••
Snag there -- Kid Flash was a junior version, but he was not a "sidekick".
Robin is a sidekick. Bucky. Speedy. Aqualad. Wally simply didn't hang out
with Barry enough to qualify as a "sidekick".
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Don Zomberg
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Joined: 23 November 2005
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| Posted: 11 April 2009 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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Younger fans get to see some actual "firsts."
Which totally justifies tossing out an important character, right? "Sorry, we need to kill off Barry Allen. It's okay, though, because we're breaking new ground by having a watered down version of the character step into his shoes."
Barry gets to have a happy ending.
Why do fictional characters need a happy "ending"? Why can't they just continue on unmolested for future audiences?
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Topic Closed)
