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Brian Talley
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 1  

Those words don't belong in a Batman comic book... period!

Or any other mainstream comic, Wallace.



Edited by Brian Talley on 16 September 2008 at 12:04pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 2  

Mainstream superhero comic.
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Brian Talley
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 3  

Good point, John.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 4  

This is a most important point. I am really, really, really, really, really tired
of these prima donnas (and, yes, I fear I must list Frank among them)
who come in and piss all over the superhero genre. Why do we need Allan
Moore's dissection of Batman's relationship with the Joker? Or his origin for
the Joker? Why do we need Frank to reinvent all the DC characters with a
heavy layer of pure sleaze troweled on? If these kinds of angry, misogynistic
stories "need" to be told, why not create a proper venue in which to tell
them.

It's particularly sad when we consider that Frank, especially, had
already created his own "universe" in which to do just this.

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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 5  

"It's particularly sad when we consider that Frank, especially, had
already created his own "universe" in which to do just this."

*****

Follow up to that point.....where are all the new SIN CITY comics?  I'm pretty confident that new SIN CITY comics by Miller would be top sellers and no doubt earn Frank lots of money.  He has name recognition beyond comic fandom like very few other comic pros have had before.  He doesn't need DC for a big pay day so I don't buy that it's just about the money.  It's been a full 10 years since the last SIN CITY series....what happened?
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Warren Leonhardt
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 6  

That's a good question, Joe. New SIN CITY stories would have done well. I guess he just wanted to move on and raise comics to a whole new level?

Edited by Warren Leonhardt on 16 September 2008 at 12:38pm
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Paul Anthony Llossas
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 7  

Maybe its just easier to coast on already established characters than to work at making one's own original creations interesting?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 8  

Hard to get into Frank's head in this area, but I have certainly seen a lot of other writers hooking their wagons to existing stars -- sometimes just the names of characters. I call it "coattailing". It also applies to certain writers hooking up with hot artists. (You know -- the writers whose work seems mysteriously not as good when they aren't paired with a really good artist.)
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Matthew Hansel
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 9  

Denny O'Neil weighs in...

Way back in the late 80s, or maybe early 90s, an inker working on one of DC’s superhero comics rendered a female form rather more like the Lord made female forms than the mores of the time allowed. The editor dealt with the problem by putting a color hold – a purple one, I think – over what some would have deemed offensive nudity.  Sex always wins. The lady’s charms shone clearly though the purple haze and a fuss ensued.

I remembered this anecdote when I saw, in the New York Times, an item about a Batman comic describing “a two page action sequence that is filled with foul language…uttered by (a) heroine…

“A black bar covered the blue words, but it was too transparent and allowed the text to be read.” Sex always wins and maybe “foul language” at least doesn’t fight fair.

According to the Times, the print run was destroyed. Having made more than my share of blunders when I sat in an editor’s chair, I know how easily goofs like this can occur and I hope the ensuing fuss doesn’t devolve on the editor, whoever he or she may be. As a certain Secretary of Defense said, stuff happens.

But I’m curious.  Did the creative folk always intend the offensive language to be covered? Surely not. Why go to the bother and expense of lettering copy that no one will read? Easier, one imagines, to simply do the black bars in the first place, though as a storytelling strategy, that would be questionable; why pull the reader out of the story while they puzzle over the meaning of the black bars?

Okay, the copy was meant to be seen? Didn’t somebody wonder if such language could cause trouble and…I dunno – ask around?

Maybe someone saw it as a free speech issue. If so, I’d demur.

I think the First Amendment is the crown jewel of the Constitution, and, personally, I can be a potty mouth. Much of my choirboy vocabulary was left on an aircraft carrier and much of whatever was left in the gutters of the East Village, pre-gentrification. But I think the way things are marketed creates expectations, and it’s not playing fair with the customers to thwart those expectations. Anything – and I do mean anything – should be allowed in the public arena, but if one buys a book bylined Henry James, one should not be subjected to a story by Mickey Spillane.

Comics have come a considerable distance in the few years since I left editing. Hell and damn, once verboten seem okay both in comics and on TV, and a few gamier locutions are beginning to pop up. But I don’t believe the medium – comics – has evolved to the point where authentic street lingo is expected.

A final consideration: The question in matters like this is always a simple one. Does it help the narrative? Is the vocabulary the writer is using his way of showing off, or does it serve a larger purpose? Any vocabulary that tells the story is almost certainly the right vocabulary, though I’d expect to get argument on this. In the case of the Batman comic we’ve been discussing, I don’t know, and probably never will.

From: http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/09/16/batmans-foul-balk-by -dennis-oneil/

MPH

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 10  

 

Hey, but Dan Dildio's still got a job! He's the Matt Millen of the comics world. You think this happens under Dick Giordano or Janette Kahn, even. I don't want to overstate it, but Kahn probably at least knew how to, I don't know, put a "Suggested for Mature Readers" label on the cussy violent crap.

And there's places for the language aspect. I loved Paul Kupperberg's latter portion of the VIGILANTE run, which had a label, and there was some rough stuff in that. It was appropriate in a hardcore crime comic, one of the few in its day.

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 11  

 

Frank Miller's got more money than Carter's got liver pills. He doesn't need more money or notoriety. I think if he was drawing the Batman comic, perhaps the fact of all this, even the manner in which the story's been told, wouldn't affect people so much. And in black and white.

I think in that case, this thing might seem less...contrived. Having Jim Lee draw it is akin to making the kids watch while the parents have sex. Lee draws attention to the Batman comic by suggesting, ahem, that it's actually a BATMAN comic. Which it isn't at all. It's Frank Miller's Batman comic.

 

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JT Molloy
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 12  

(You know -- the writers whose work seems mysteriously not as good when
they aren't paired with a really good artist.)

--

*cough, Jeph Loeb *cough

Just my opinion based on observation though. It's kind of annoying how
there's this writer-dominant mentality going on comics right now. I mean
sure, some are more talented than others but let's get real, they're COMIC
books.
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