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Craig Bogart
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 1  


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I wish there were still lots of kids reading Fantastic Four, but there aren't. Coming out of Civil War, it would be disingenuous to claim the title was intended mostly for children, so I wrote it for the audience that was there.

I read the Claremont/Byrne X-Men and the original Frank Miller Daredevil when I was 9-12 years old, and they stand as more sophisticated writing than anything on the shelves today.  The writer who claims that it's an either/or proposition to write for kids or adults is simply wrong.  To say he wishes kids were reading FF, but since they aren't he'll write something they CAN'T...  words fail me.



Edited by Craig Bogart on September 13 2008 at 1:51pm
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Chad Carter
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 2  

 

libraries are not a demonstrable source for
what comics so desperately need: new readers, new sales.

Too true, too true. Libraries operate (well, mostly) as ideals themselves. They encompass ideals, while constantly battered by the reality of an Internet culture and disposable income and ethics.

Libraries are at the mercy of cultural affluence; without poor people, libraries soon become museums. Affluence serves to isolate individual society, for who has need for "free" exposure to "ideals" when they can afford to ignore it? If you get my meaning.

I think it's worth stating, if it isn't obvious to anyone reading here, the libraries aren't receiving these books for free, they purchase them with State/Federal money, tax free but usually at a discount from bulk sales companies. I understand this is besides the point, it's just for the edification of anyone mistaking "free" in our terms against library terms...the money comes from the taxpayer, and believe me, there are tons of folks who don't like that arrangement.

The Companies can't target libraries, and aren't inclined to do so. Bookstores are the target de jour. What I don't get is why there isn't a larger schism between what is available to bookstores and what is produced in the monthlies.

If the monthlies are pandering to an adult audience still "hooked" on the monthlies, the bookstores have packaged trades waiting for the adult consumer who wants more bang for the buck. The monthly audience is "paying for the privilege" of an "advance screening" of the trade.

This seems counter-productive to good business. If the trades are raking in the dough, why not focus the adult storylines in trades only, and use the monthlies as the starter point for kids/new readers (from teen to Whenever?)

The monthly format requires a specific story-telling device. Mostly single issues with short mult-part sub-plots.

The adult audience as it stands is willing to be "strung out" in the melodrama, and the creative talent is designed around "decompression", so the two are made for each other. Trades of the adult tales, devoid of monthly considerations, solve all of the problems inherent in "decompression". Without a clear beginning or end, these trades would simply continue infinitum. Audiences will watch six seasons or more of a television show in much the same way...they want a steady diet of what they know.

Why isn't DC and Marvel capitalizing on this? The adult trades eschew non-Continuity followers, while the new reader-centric monthlies assimilate the "public" and mesh with a clearer identity to draw the movie-going pre/teenager seeking to further the adventure they just witnessed. In time, if they do not "move on" from comics, there is a whole Continuity-choked "Dungeons and Dragons" adult sub-culture like a raging river never-ending, never-beginning, awaiting them.

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 3  

I read the Claremont/Byrne X-Men and the original Frank Miller Daredevil when I was 9-12 years old, and they stand as more sophisticated writing than anything on the shelves today. The writer who claims that it's an either/or proposition to write for kids or adults is simply wrong. To say he wishes kids were reading FF, but since they aren't he'll write something they CAN'T... words fail me.

••

About 20 years ago, perhaps a little more, writers of superhero comics seemed to suddenly forget, en masse, how to write in layers. This is what I have done with my stuff since the first time I was offered a gig writing a comic book -- try to put stuff in there that will "reveal" itself as the reader returns five, ten, fifteen years later. Stan Lee used to do this. Denny O'Neil. Roy Thomas. And, yes, Chris Claremont.

It is a sad comment on the state of the industry -- ie, that comics have become over-priced fanzines -- that the writers who supposedly grew up reading this stuff have no idea how to do it.

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Emery Calame
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 4  

I keep thinking that the ongoing Gog/Magog saga in the JSA should have been "tellable" in MAYBE three issues and probably just two. It feels RIDICULOUSLY DRAWWWNNNN   OOOUUUUUUTTTT.
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John Byrne
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 5  

One of the things that has gone wrong in the past few years is that writers -- mostly coming in from Hollywood -- have decided to eschew the "Marvel Method" of plot-pencils-script and return to the much older, much clunkier full script approach.

The flaw in this notion can be found back in the days when Chris and I were first working on X-MEN, before we went to "phone plots". Altho we did not work full script after the first two issues of Iron Fist's adventures we did together, Chris would routinely write a fifteen or sixteen page plot for a seventeen page story. Basically, he wrote a short story, with lots of descriptions and dialog that was not at all necessary for the artist (me) to do his job. Eventually, I reached a point where I would read the plot once, put it aside, and draw what I remembered. Invariably this led to me skimming off the cream, getting to the real gist of the story.

When writing a full script -- especially given that most writers seem not able to think in still pictures -- this kind of "editing" doesn't occur. The writers write and write and write and write and write and write and write and write and write and write and write and no one, not even the editors, apparently, tell them to cut it back, to trim the fat. None of them, it would seem, are aware of William Goldman's golden advice, about starting as deep into every scene, and as deep into every story, as possible.

I am convinced that this is at least partially responsible for late books. It's not about "growing roses". It's about artists losing the energy to get out of bed in the morning, when they know that all that lies ahead of them is page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page of talking heads.

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Robert Walsh
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 6  

Maybe I'm missing the point, but couldn't the kid who read Essentials in
a library go out and buy exactly those issues.

The great thing about libraries is that they foster an enjoyment of reading,
especially among people who can't afford the hobby. As they grow up
and get a little money in their pocket, they start buying books on a
regular basis.

The sale you lose today from library is often returned ten-fold in the
future. As someone who is attempting to sample graphic novels in
libraries, it's far easier to find the book at Borders then wait for it to
become available at the library.
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Chad Carter
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 7  

 

There should never be a superhero comic book with scenes of "talking heads."

The way I thought it was done, if the story required the characters to figure stuff out, there was ALWAYS accompanying visuals. Either flashbacks or visual speculation of how Villain A escaped the fall into the volcano.

If there was just talking heads, it usually had a very strong impact on the plot, such as a revelation of some kind, some melodrama, a threat, a vow.

I get sick of reading drawn out tough guy talk between antagonists, or worse yet trivial pop culture references and simpering self-immolation (honed to a science by Spider-Man comics.)

If you broke down a real comic book story, it should look like a game of Solitare. Every pillar represents a character, the cards a plot point, an action. Then when you see the connecting card, you move the whole pillar/cards to another pillar, and it falls into place.

 

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Brian Miller
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 8  

but couldn't the kid who read Essentials in
a library go out and buy exactly those issues.

******************

Wish my kid could afford Amazing Fantasy 15 or Fantastic Four 1 or Giant Size X-Men 1. Of course, if she could, odds are I would already have these gems and she wouldn't have to go buy them unless she wanted her own copies...

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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
The sale you lose today from library is often returned ten-fold in the
future. As someone who is attempting to sample graphic novels in
libraries, it's far easier to find the book at Borders then wait for it to
become available at the library.


That's my feeling.  It doesn't seem as if the library would be able to satisfy everyone's demand.  Libraries, generally, wouldn't have more than a few copies, at most, of each title available.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
It's about artists losing the energy to get out of bed in the morning, when they know that all that lies ahead of them is page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page after page of talking heads.


Which perhaps leads to a loss of dynamism and a resulting focus on quasi-photorealism, which perhaps results in a lot of oohing and aahing by certain fans, who excuse comic book lateness or even view it as a good thing..


Edited by Paulo Pereira on September 13 2008 at 4:03pm
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Robert Walsh
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 11  

I mean the can go out and buy the exact same graphic novel they read
from the library.

The main reason I started getting graphic novels from the library is
because I'm completely overwhelmed by the choices available to me. I
can barely follow conversations around here because there's only a few
comic creators I know the name of.

I get the feeling that Fables is a good book because every book store I
go to had runs of it, but so I put in a request at the library and one of
these days they'll have it and I can make the decision to buy the whole
run or not.

Without libraries I'd have to make some fairly expensive gambles based
on a ten year out of date knowledge of comics. If I find enough creators
to keep my interest I might last longer than a few years as a reader.
Enough bad guesses and I'll be out the door pretty quick.
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 12  

My advice, "Buy 'em on eBay, then sell 'em on eBay."  It works for me.
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