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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11
Posts: 133514
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| Posted: 2008 February 24 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 1
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Or missing the point?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11
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| Posted: 2008 February 24 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 2
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…what exactly did Bob Kane contribute to the Batman as we know him?
••
With the question phrased as you have, the answer is "nothing".
Kane did come up with the name "Bat-Man", tho.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11
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| Posted: 2008 February 24 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 3
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Just my way of going >8-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2007 October 05
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 2008 February 24 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 4
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umm,nevermind
(Cue Gilda Radner/Rosanne Rosanna Danna)
Edited by Lars Sandmark on 2008 February 24 at 8:00pm
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Hunter McFalls
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2007 January 08
Location: United States
Posts: 681
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| Posted: 2008 February 24 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 5
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Chris Durnell wrote:
One reason why swiping is so prevalent is that many comic artists start their careers "too soon," meaning they are still learning the craft.
If comics were done like a medieval guild system, they'd still be apprentices simply helping a master and duplicating his work. At this stage, they'd be doing a lot of swipes, but their master simply would not let it be published. They'd later progress to journeyman, and at that stage they would begin doing their own work and get published. Their style is still influenced by their master, but things like swiping would no longer be done. Finally, they become a master themselves, and have their own individual style.
Some artists, of course, already have distinctive styles. Walt Simonson's early work was obviously different, but he had not perfected it yet. With some artists, we can see this progression quite clearly. Bill Sienkiwicz went from being another Neal Adams clone to his own thing. Others will become respectable journeyman, but never make the transition to master. I can think of so many artists that turned out good, enjoyable work, but simply lacked the talent or genius to really stand the test of time. Others have the potential, but for one reason or another simply progress to the level they could.
So many artists had very noticeable flaws when they began in the business, but some editor saw potential and wanted to groom them. Those who started in the '70s or '80s had to improve if they were to keep getting work. But many in the '90s were able to become successful during the speculators phase, got much success, and then stagnated because they didn't need to improve.
*********************************************
This is one of the coolest analogies for the comic artist I have ever heard. Showing a deep knowledge and respect of the process.
Thank you!
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2007 September 04
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 6
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So many artists had very noticeable flaws when they began in the business, but some editor saw potential and wanted to groom them.
Great point. I think that despite any drawing flaws, these artists demonstrated that they had strong story-telling skills, which used to be essential if one wanted to draw comic books <g>.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 7
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…these artists demonstrated that they had strong story-telling skills, which
used to be essential if one wanted to draw comic books <g>.
••
More like :-(
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Armindo Macieira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 October 15
Location: Portugal
Posts: 955
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 8
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Erik Larsen wrote:
For a number of artists--swiping is justified as trying to give the
fans the best possible comics. If that means swiping from an artist that
they thought got it right--they'd do that. |
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Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Liefeld, MacFarlane and other artists had the best intentions when they swiped other artist's work in the early days. It still doesn't explain how an ARTIST wants to build a career by copying other artist's work!
I couldn't live with myself if I knew I'd built my career standing in the shoulders of others. This is art! It's personal, it comes from within, not from tracing a picture!
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2007 April 10
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 9
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Isaac Newton (paraphrased) said that if he saw a little further than others it's because he stood on the shoulders of giants.
It's not what you use as building blocks that matters: it's whether you add something which is entirely original.
Edited by Jesus Garcia on 2008 February 25 at 9:53am
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Armindo Macieira
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 10
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That's not quite the same thing. Isaac Newton (re)defined physics and created laws that were applied for several centuries. I believe the artists were talking about didn't even redefined comics...
Of course it's okay to trace other artist when you're 12 and learning... it's like using training wheels,but you have to take the next step(s). The moment you become a PROFESSIONAL ARTIST and you find yourself copying others you have 0 value as an artist... No matter what excuse.
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 11
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Your statement "... and created laws that were applied for several centuries" is a contraction. You mean he formulated laws expressing phenomena that have been known for centuries.
My point was that narrative art is a language of concepts -- like physics -- which progresses forward by building on the work of previous linguists. Sometimes a new artist needs to walk in the shoes of a previous artist to find a personal voice.
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2008 February 19
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 2008 February 25 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 12
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Armindo Macieira wrote:
Erik Larsen wrote:
For a number of artists--swiping is justified as trying to give the
fans the best possible comics. If that means swiping from an artist that
they thought got it right--they'd do that.
***********
Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Liefeld, MacFarlane and other
artists had the best intentions when they swiped other artist's work in the
early days. It still doesn't explain how an ARTIST wants to build a career
by copying other artist's work!
I couldn't live with myself if I knew I'd built my career standing in the
shoulders of others. This is art! It's personal, it comes from within, not
from tracing a picture! |
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Well, remember--not every panel was a swipe. A small portion of the
panels constituted swipes. It wasn't a case of these guys trying to be
indistinguishable from John Byrne or Frank Miller or whoever--it was a
case of trying to bring the coolest images to the page.
And it's interesting to note that, years later, Bob Kane swiped from Todd
McFarlane for a Batman piece that was drawn after the release of the first
Batman movie.
I think it was a case of these guys thinking, "This is what the editors
want--this is what the fans want--I'm going to give them what they
want."
I think it's a mistake to impose your own morals on another person. What
makes sense to you may not have even occurred to them. Swiping may be
viewed by some as unethical but it is not illegal. Marvel owns John Byrne's
Hulk drawings and if another Marvel artist choses to copy those and
Marvel decides to pay for them again--there's no "victim" there.
When it became clear to Todd that the readers felt it was wrong (and
this was pre-internet, remember--it took a while for that message to get
to him)--Todd knocked it off (for the most part). I don't think anybody
had ever sat down with him and given him a "hey, this isn't cool" talk.
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Topic Closed)
