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Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 June 27 Posts: 3882
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 1
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Homage or Swipe, the original artist isn't asked permission nor given fair compensation in either case. They're both a form of thieving.
Does anyone even knows that Daft Punk's Robot Rock is really Breakwater's Unleash the Beast? That Beyonce's Crazy in Love is really the Chi-Lites' Are You my Woman? Joe average doesn't and doesn't care. How do you even know the original author got fairly compensated for creating the hook to an Eminem song?You can only guess!
As far as joe average is concerned, they're buying an original song. Legally, as long as permissions were granted and the owners got compensated it doesn't matter. It's not even any of the customer's business.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11 Posts: 133513
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 8:41am | IP Logged | 2
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I don't see how directly acknowledging the original work constitutes a swipe. •• I begin to see the reason for some people's confusion. A swipe is copying another artist's work whether the other artist is acknowledged or not. In some cases, the swipe is deliberately obvious, and often done with some humorous effect intended, so no acknowledgment is actually needed. Everybody "knows" the source. In some cases, the copying artist is presenting the work as his own, without acknowledgment of the original artist. In other cases, the copying artist adds a small "credit box" acknowledging the original artist. All of these are swipes, only the intent varies.
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Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 June 27 Posts: 3882
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 3
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Ron, how do you even know Jim Lee hasn't swiped anything? Have you read and poured over every single comic in existance? You're attributing intentions to people you don't know on things you have no clue about.
Tracing another person's work isn't a swipe, it's a trace off. Swiping is taking some elements of a composition as a base and making it into a new composition doing a different thing, holding different objects with a different rendering making it a new image. Or well, that's the way I read about it in my graphic arts text books.
Edited by Martin Redmond on 2008 February 23 at 8:43am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11 Posts: 133513
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 4
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Tracing another person's work isn't a swipe, it's a trace off. Swiping is
taking some elements of a composition as a base and making it into a
new composition doing a different thing, holding different objects with a
different rendering making it a new image. Or well, that's the way I read
about it in my graphic arts text books.
••
The difference between tracing and swiping pretty much comes down to
spelling. Both are copying another artist's work, the former is merely
putting a little less effort into the process.
Still, as Wally Wood supposedly said, Never draw what you can swipe,
never swipe what you can trace, never trace what you can cut out and
paste in, and never do any of that if you can hire somebody to do it for
you.
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Eric Kleefeld Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2004 December 21 Location: United States Posts: 4422
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 5
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Here's a question for JB or anyone else: Is it acceptable for an homage — that is, something that gives credit and wants to be recognized for what it is, a salute to the original — to be traced?
Edited by Eric Kleefeld on 2008 February 23 at 9:51am
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 April 24 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
I think this oversimplifies soimething that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. |
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Well said.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 April 24 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 7
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I agree as well. Wolverine's hair looks particularly silly in the Miller cover homage.
The Cassaday cover is an odd case. Why just copy the cover line for line? What the heck is the point?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 2005 May 11 Posts: 133513
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 8
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Is it acceptable for an homage — that is, something that gives credit and wants to be recognized for what it is, a salute to the original — to be traced? •• I'd have to say no, unless there was some very specific circumstance involved ---- tho, frankly, I can't think of one!
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Joie Simmons Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2007 July 31 Location: United States Posts: 288
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 9
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I think I remember being in high school at a museum on a trip and some guy
was copying a painting and we all asked how he was able to rip it off like
that. We were told that it's OK to make your own copy as long as the
dimensions aren't exactly the same, so it could be a little bigger or a little
smaller.
This always stuck with me because about three seconds later the guy started
to sweat and get really really anxious with an entire class of high school
seniors standing behind him and he literally ran out of the room. I'm sure he
came back when all was quiet, but we got a good laugh out of his reaction.
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Greg Reeves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 February 06 Location: United States Posts: 1396
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
I agree as well. Wolverine's hair looks particularly silly in the Miller cover homage. |
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I realize around these parts I won't get much agreement with my opinion, but I see the Wolverine homage (is it McNiven?) as infinitely better than Miller's. Now, I'm not downplaying Miller's achievements as a creator/artist: he did it first and wonderfully. But just by comparison, I'm surprised anyone can say Logan's hair looks silly in the second pic compared to Miller's. In Miller's, it appears as a single solid form with a bit of a ragged edge; in the homage artist's version, there is variation among the hairs (as it is in reality for a wild hairstyle). Some may say we're not talking reality, but looking at those two images side to side, I find the second one MUCH more pleasing to the eye (while Miller's gives me a sense of nostalgia). Furthermore, while Joey Q is not a popular man around here, can anyone honestly say they prefer McFarlane's version of the Wolverine cover over his? Look at the line detail in the flesh (not the masks): Joe's has shadow and line weight and blends much better with the rest of the image than does McFarlane's thin scribbly lines. New color techniques help sell the images too, of course, but I'm looking below that layer.
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Anthony J Lombardi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2005 January 12 Location: United States Posts: 9410
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 11
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I like the miller wolverine Homage better than the orginal also.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 2006 April 24 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 2008 February 23 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
But just by comparison, I'm surprised anyone can say Logan's hair looks silly in the second pic compared to Miller's. In Miller's, it appears as a single solid form with a bit of a ragged edge; in the homage artist's version, there is variation among the hairs (as it is in reality for a wild hairstyle). |
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The McNiven Wolverine looks like he just got out of bed. Yes, Logan has a crazy do, but he has almost always shown to be relatively well-groomed with nary a hair out of place, at least on the top of the head. Also, I just find I prefer the graphic simplicity of the Miller/Rubenstein image and the prominence of black. You extolled Quesada for his linework in his homage cover and criticized McFarlane for his weak linework. Well, where are the lines in McNiven's work? To me it looks subdued at best and relies heavily on color to convey depth. Take out the color and which image stands out more? I'm saying all this as someone who'd always regarded the Miller cover with indifference. Actually, the juxtaposition of the homage with the original has given me a new appreciation for the original.
As for the Quesada homage, I agree that it's better drawn but I still think the McFarlane cover just works better (partly because the Hulk looks so goofy in the Quesada pic – an odd statement, perhaps, given the "goofy" nature of McFarlane's work). Similar to the first example, I'm saying this as someone who isn't a McFarlane fan.
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