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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
Was Jack Kirby not a perfectionist? Is Joe Kubert not a perfectionist? Curt Swan?
It pisses me off every time this crap is tossed out so casually -- especially by people who should know better. This is "growing roses" in a different wrapper. And it is a flat out insult to everyone who ever turned in their work on time. "Oh, this was on time. It must be less than perfect. Let's go look for someone who is late. He is obviously a perfectionist!"
Bullshit. |
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Allow me to (attempt to) clarify. I'm not suggesting for a moment that any of those people you named (plus a bunch of others, amongst which I would include yourself) didn't do awesome work. Nor am I excusing these habitually late artists or suggesting any of them deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as any of these legendary names. I used perfectionist for lack of a better word, and it's not really a word that I always view in a positive sense, in any case. Perfectionism can be a restrictive quality (at least that's how it strikes me at times) and I don't think it suits everybody.
What I'm trying to get at is that the artistic trend today seems to focus on static photorealism, with all the detail (and talking heads) that that implies. It goes with a second point that I left unremarked, that much of today's art is all form, no function. The art seems very action-deficient these days and I honestly think that contributes at least somewhat to the apparently languorous pace of some artists. It would seem to figure since the art is itself languorous.
Of course, that's no excuse for late work (and, believe me, I'm not excusing it) but the other half of the equation (which I also didn't remark on) seems to be that these new guys don't have as strong a grasp and/or appreciation of the medium as those who came before. They also clearly lack the work ethic. And, of course, they're not as good as the old guard (at least the best of the old guard) as much as some might argue otherwise.
I don't think Kirby, Kubert, Swan et al were perfectionists (at least not in the sense I'm using the word). They didn't need to be – because they were just that good.
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Andy Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 June 2004 Posts: 503
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 2
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<Andy since i'm not in the way of knowing certain things let me ask. Are most artist paid per page they draw or is it per title ?>
Artist's get paid by the individual pages they do.
Andy
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12736
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
I think when you look at guys like Joe Kubert, Jack Kirby, John
Buscema, and many of the most prolific artists I have known, yoiu have to
take into account that they did not come into the industry as FANS... they
were not making big bucks drawing comics... they had families to feed, so
they had to get fast |
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Ah ha, but the also had to get fast and still be good. 'Tis a pity
that the industry has changed so much that neither is really required
anymore.
(Yeah, that's me saying most of the roses being grown these days smell like
shit.)
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
Ah ha, but the also had to get fast and still be good. |
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Yeah, that's one of the key points I was trying to infer in my comment about perfectionism. That the current crop of artists have to be slow to be good and/or don't have the know-how to be good and on time. One can only imagine how their work would look if they were forced to be on time. I would like to think they could learn to be good and on time if deadlines were regularly enforced. It just doesn't seem as if they have that discipline.
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Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 5
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I like fast art better. My favorite period of most artists is when they were the most prolific. The Image founders are a great example. I loved all their work pre Image, hate their Image stuff.
Art Adams too, well I don't hate it, but I'm really indifferent to his post 80s stylisation.I just feel there's more enthusiasm in the earlier work. My favorite of his is his Cloak and Dagger issue and surprise, I learned much later in life that it's the only comic he drew on time. It looks FREANKING AWESOME. I was blown away by it.
Check out Jim Lee's Batman run next to ASBR, it makes ASBR even 10 times uglier than it already is.
Edited by Martin Redmond on 20 February 2008 at 11:05am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133580
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 6
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I have said before that an obvious solution to this problem is another giant step backward.Monthly books are, really, something of a myth. Not only because too many artists seem to think having a book come out during a month -- you know, June or something -- qualifies as "monthly", but because for much of the front half of this industry's history, books were not, in fact, monthly. Twice-quarterly (monthly in the Summer, bi-monthly the rest of the year) was more common, giving us 8 books a year. SUPERMAN and BATMAN both operated this way. When I was doing IRON FIST, it was one of the last of the twice-quarterly books. So I say go back to twice-quarterly. Make all the books eight times a year, staggered so there is always a healthy amount of product on the shelves, and then KILL anybody who cannot keep to that schedule. Stamp out their whole bloodline. Burn down their houses. Sow the earth with salt. (Smart editors will, of course, encourage their talent to keep to a monthly schedule so they can pull out way ahead of the deadlines. Think of it! 12 books a year for 2 years, published 8 times a year, and you gain a whole year!!!)
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Roger A Ott II Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5371
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 7
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That honestly sounds like a great idea.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133580
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 8
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Of course it's a great idea!!
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12736
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 9
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Especially the killing part!
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12736
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 10
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By the way, I hope what I was saying before was clear. I meant that not only
did the artists in those days have to be fast because they had families to
feed, they had to be good because they had families to feed. If they
were only one of the two, the work would go to someone who was both, and
the kids go hungry.
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Brian Hunt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5178
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 11
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As of 2006 median household (not to be confused with individual) income in the United States was just over $47,000 annually, or $3,917 per month. An individual income of $4,400 is above the national household average. Income tax and health insurance is a negligible difference. Payroll taxes are a big difference because half of that burden is usually born by the employer. That still leaves a decent wage compared to the national average. Local cost of living is the real variable, but NY, NY's median household income is historically slightly lower than the US average.
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5094
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 12
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I'm not sure if Neal Adams, George Perez, or Carlos Pacheo ever drew 12 comics in a year.
••
What about George's run on TEEN TITANS?
==
George Perez also did 24 issues of Wonder Woman and 12 issues of Crisis On Infinite Earths.
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