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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4044
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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I enjoy Hitch. I enjoy others, though I'd enjoy them more if they worked at a pace that produced solid work in a timely manner. Take away the bells and whistle.s
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JT Molloy Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Posts: 2092
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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I like half of Hitch's stuff. The half that isn't drawing closeups of
photographs of celebreties.
Also the half that meets a schedule. At some point awhile ago I was reading
Ultimates 2, and I'm not a fanboy so when that thing stopped showing up in
stores. I stopped showing up in stores.
I'm wasn't even making some statement by it either. I just didn't care
anymore and by the time the newest one got there weeks and weeks late, I
hadn't even noticed.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133580
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 3
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I'm no artist, but with just about any sort of work, there's a point where spending extra time isn't going to make the project better. It just becomes "paralysis by analysis."•• Many, many moons ago, a friend told me of a friend of his who worked in the design department for one of the big auto companies in Detroit. According to this friend-of-a-friend, the design teams were given a set amount of time in which to come up with a new design -- and woe be to them if they got to what they wanted before the time was up! Because then, the story went, they just had to keep going, even if it meant obliterating the design they liked. I have never entirely believed this story -- altho when I look at the rear ends of many American cars, I sometimes wonder -- but it did dovetail nicely with one of the very important lessons I learned in Art College: know when to stop. A drawing is a drawing is a drawing, and each one is going to take a different amount of time. The trick is to take the time you need -- and if that means declining a job because you know you can't do it in the time allotted, you decline that job. You don't take it thinking Well, I can always turn it in late.
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Thorsten Brochhaus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Posts: 328
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 4
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If one needs more time to do a proper job, then one should take more time, and not work in monthlies.
---
'Nuff Said.
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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4044
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 5
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I don't disagree with you at all, Thorston. Late artists annoy the hell out of me.
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Troy Nunis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4598
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 6
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Fred, to be clear about Denerick's work -- are we so much talking about how much detail he'll add, or are we talking about his differant styles -- his Comic Art style (which is perfectly fine) vs. his fully Tonal style - which he's used on only one or two mini series and alot of Ebay commisions?
I would say having a highly techniqued STYLE which you know takes longer, and you keep in the bag unless it's a project where you'll have the time to use it is a bit differant than skimping out on detail/finishing the work just to get something done.
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Howard Mackie Byrne Robotics Security
Armed and Dangerous
Joined: 16 February 2005 Posts: 666
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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<<I'm no artist, but with just about any sort of work, there's a point where spending extra time isn't going to make the project better. It just becomes "paralysis by analysis." >>
Years ago, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and Iw as an editor at Marvel, I worked with an artist(and he is great artist...one of my favorites) who could NOT get a book in on time. If you gave him three weeks, he need five... gave him five, he needed seven, etc... I was constantly "murdering" his art by hiring mulitple inkers or inkers who could make up for lost time, etc... I would always have to explaint o himt hat I wouldnt have to use mulitple inkers, etc.. if he would just get the work in on time. He never could. One day a package arrived in mail with some pages. Tucked amidst the "real" story was a "joke" page... one that was quite rude, and made me laugh because it fit with the story. I called up the artist and complimented him on the joke and asked,"But how did you have time to draw this when we are so late?" He explained to me that the page took no time at all, no more than an hour, and it was really what John calls "cleaning the pipes".I pointed out to him tha tthere was NOT much difference to the untrained eye between this "joke" page and the "real" pages around it. That to most readers this page, with a professional ink job, would pass as some pretty good art. The artist could not see it. He talked about how loose it was... I countered that maybe he needed to loosen up. He talked about it being rough... I said it looked pretty polished to me. This went on and on, and things still have not changed with this artist. He just never attempts to draw a regular series anymore.
For what its worth... maybe the rose growers just need to get the pages done and off their desks.
But what do I know.
Howard
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Howard Mackie Byrne Robotics Security
Armed and Dangerous
Joined: 16 February 2005 Posts: 666
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 8
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Another anecdote... I worked with one artist(and this guy was a schedule keeper) who first would break an issue down into thumbnails(about comic book size)... then redraw the entire issue at full size in BLUE PENCIL... and THEN go over all the blue lines in regular pencil. I'm telling yout he THUMBNAILS could have been inked and printed. When I pointed ouyt tot he artist that he could EASILY pencil more than one book a month, he simply refused. It was the way he did it... he liked the way it worked...and he was going to stick with it.
Howard
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Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 9
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Howard wrote: "When a publisher says that a book is going to be MONTHLY... isn't that an implied contract with the readers? There are PLENTY of artist who just don't seem to be able to pencil monthly titles... so they shouldn't. There are graphic novels... trades... one-shots... limited series(that should NEVER be scheduled untilt he last issue is done)... and all sorts of ways for you to get your 6 issues a year. They, and the publishers, should just not promise the readers something else."
Howard, I'd even go as far as to say that it isn't so much an implied contract as very real one, albeit (perhaps) not in the strictest legal sense. E.g. if I'd order a yearly subscription that'd cover 12 isssues right, but if those issues don't actually materialise over a year but over two or even three... wouldn't that be an actual breach of contract? I know there be lawyer people in here, what's your take on that?
JB wrote: "One of the things Roger Stern and I have complained loudly about over the years is graphic novels that ship late. I mean, honest to cripes, why would a GN even be scheduled before it was completely finished??"
I couldn't agree more, JB, in fact, it's beyond me why so many editors in the current climate would even want to schedule a six issue mini without having the full thing finished on their desks. After all graphic novels and limited series seem to be the perfect vehicle for the slow pokes. Let them finish in their own time, get paid for the number of pages produced and the schedule the thing for publication. People who want to enjoy the work by these artists can do so and without getting annoyed by constant delays. And somehow, I think it might be an incentive to the slowpokes to get their payment after a full delivery of a series so that there'd be a good incentive to, you know, finish.
Paulo wrote: "From what I've seen of Derenick's work, it's detailed enough and if he can produce that on time, then why the heck would he ever want to add more detail? Detail is overrated."
Details can be fun and good and all, but each thing has its time and place, and to be frank, it takes quite a bit of talent, I think, to pull off great detail work in comics and not falling in the trap of letting the work grow static. That'd be my judgment as a non-artist from seeing some of the contemporary, "more detailed" stuff. Comics should be about storytelling shouldn't they? If you can do that well and capture the action with stick figures, I think I'd prefer that to a bunch of pin-up pieces that fail to tell the story... not to say that I don't enjoy the storytelling to make use of good artwork, I hope you all understand, just trying to underline my personal preference for storytelling in a medium primarily (to my understanding) narrative in nature.
Howard - thanks for sharing those two anecdotes. The latter shows a person who understands his/her own limitations whether from physical capacity or being set in a specific way of doing things, but at least not overreaching when knowing that. There's kudos in that, methinks.
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Felicity Walker Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 349
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
When I told him three, he asked “What do you think would happen if you only did two?” My response: “I’d finish earlier.” |
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Ha ha ha! :-) I love that.
What would happen if letterists and colourists insisted on taking as long as they wanted and kept pushing the book past deadline? I love good lettering, and I might be willing to wait an extra day for Janice Chiang to re-letter a correction at full quality instead of that weird jumbly scrawl you get for most corrections, but would the editors wait? The fans?
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Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 11
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Felicity – if everyone did their jobs on time (and in good time), I'd assume that there'd be time enough to give the letterer that extra day if needed for re-lettering a correction. But that's just me assuming that people working with a professional sense would add some extra time between an actual absolutely last minute printing deadline and you know the deadline to have the work ready for the printer, just to have some spare time to fix possible SNAFUs...
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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4044
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Posted: 25 February 2008 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 12
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Troy, the latter. Thanks for clarifying what I was awkwardly and unsuccessfully trying to convey. Just goes to show that I'd be better off staying on the sidelines when dealing with an intense headache throughout the entire day. ;)
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