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Pedro Bouça Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 1465
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 1
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Guys, the important thing is that Stravesty's run is no more, the marriage is no more, Spider-Man is now like we have always been demanding him to be. Why is everyone complaining? *I* am happy, myself!
(Although I DO think that it should have been done in a less stupid way than the "deal with the devil" thing. It must be REALLY offensive for religious readers! What was so wrong with the Shaper of Worlds or the Cosmic Cube?)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133571
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 2
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am one of the few who liked Peter and MJ marriage and I never thought it
hindered the writers or took away from the original concept of Peter or
Spider-Man.
••
Well -- there's a New Year's Resolution gone already.
Anyway, whether the marriage "hindered" the writers can be debated forever -- and
has been, by the writers! Whether it took away from the original concept -- outcast
loner who "escapes" into his costumed identity -- surely cannot be disputed. A
successful photojournalist married to a supermodel is about as far from the original
+++
My question is will the marriage
remain in the newspaper strip since Stan still writes it. I hope so.
•••
Stan brought the marriage into the strip when he was turning more to the soap opera
elements, away from the superheroing. He was surprised to find Marvel had picked it up for
the monthlies.
concept as you can get without actually going cosmic.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133571
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 3
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Guys, the important thing is that Stravesty's run is no more, the marriage is
no more, Spider-Man is now like we have always been demanding him to
be. Why is everyone complaining? *I* am happy, myself!
•••
Less a reason to complain than a reason to be cautious in your optimism, is
the fact that a "deal with the devil" has an automatic "out". The devil always
lies. Mephisto is not someone I'd trust with my lunch money.
By using Mephisto, they are effectively saying "Here are sweeping changes -
- but we are not really committed to them."
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Aaron Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 10461
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 8:38am | IP Logged | 4
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A superhero being married is fine (Reed Richards).
A superhero being succesful in his career, or even rich in some cases is fine (Tony Stark is filthy rich, as is Bruce Wayne. Clark Kent is no failure in the reporter department.)
Spider-Man is not the one who should have these successes. Peter Parker is one of the few characters who have lasted that long after coming into being in a form that needed almost no adjustments to its essential core. Screwing with that formula after decades of success is just silly.
If this reboot, through some miracle, assuming Marvel doesn't figure out how to screw it up in other directions, manages to restore that core concept of Peter Parker as a single young man with troubles who still strives to live up to his great responsibilities, then I'm all for it, even though I'm not at all crazy about the way it was brought about. Still, it is the future stories that concern me the most.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133571
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 5
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We go back to a mantra I have hit often, here and elsewhere. If you stick with a character long enough to think that his or her basic schtick has grown old, it is not time for the character to change. It's time for you to move on.Stan wrote one hundred issues of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and in so doing demonstrated his mastery of the illusion of change. Peter graduated high school, got a job with the Bugle, dated several hot chicks -- but at center, he remained the same guy. And, what is really important, as Ditko himself noted, somewhat obliquely, Stan pushed that core guy about as far as he could. Ditko felt that taking Parker out of high school was a mistake (with which I agree), because the core of the character requires him to be young. Young enough to still make the mistakes teenagers make. With every year that Parker moved away from high school while remaining the same guy (year of his time, not ours), he became, effectively, more and more immature. A 20 year old who makes the same kinds of choices as a 16 year old is on the wrong path. A 30 year old even moreso. Yet -- and herein lies a central problem -- writers insisted on keeping him the "loser". The guy with the black cloud over his head. Which is fine when he's 16, because most 16 year olds feel that way (and, importantly, think they are the only ones who feel that way). I have long maintained that Parker is a sad sack, but not a "loser". But a thirty-something who pulls O Woe is Me out of his hat every time something goes wrong -- that's a loser. Especially when, because of the real changes to his environment, Spider-Man has ceased to be his "escape". He has what should be a pretty good life, with the wife and the career. Simple responsibility -- also central to the character -- should dictate it's time for him to hang up the webs. Amazing how fast the dark clouds would scatter.
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Francesco Vanagolli Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 3130
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 6
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JB, I always thought Spider-Man should be a bit younger than me, I'd say... 20/22 years old. Can he be a "sad sack" at that age, or is he already too old for that?
By the way, I still fondly remember your last issue of ASM... Peter with no wife, house, job and money anymore. Only one way to escape from those sad, REAL problems: Spider-Man. I love when Peter Parker has the problems of the everyman.
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David Ferguson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 6782
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 7
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I was struck by the fact that Quesada holds OMD up with DD:Father as his favorite and most personally satisfying story
******
OMD is that bad? I HATED DD: Father. It destroyed the origin of DD.
But a thirty-something who pulls O Woe is Me out of his hat every time something goes wrong -- that's a loser.
*******
That sort of thing is what makes me dislike Peter
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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4044
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 8
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I was struck by the fact that Quesada holds OMD up with DD:Father as his favorite and most personally satisfying story
******
OMD is that bad? I HATED DD: Father. It destroyed the origin of DD.
***
Yeah David, OMD was that bad. The most bizarre aspect to his DD story that was to honor his own father, was that he turned Matt's fathher as an abusive bully that beat and verbally abused his kid.... it boggles the mind.
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 9
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Simple responsibility -- also central to the character -- should dictate it's time for him to hang up the webs.
******
But the same things that made him become Spider-Man are still valid. The city is full of scum bags and he has the power to help people. The only time I could see him stopping is being physically unable to continue.
Edited by Victor .R. Rodgers on 01 January 2008 at 9:45am
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 10
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I think the core of Spider-Man is still viable if he's twenty-something, as long as he's not married to a supermodel and doesn't hold a steady job. Plus, he still has the immortal "with great power comes great responsibility" to motivate him.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 01 January 2008 at 9:58am
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Robbie Patterson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 August 2004 Posts: 733
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 11
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Edited by Robbie Patterson on 01 January 2008 at 9:56am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133571
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Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 12
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Simple responsibility -- also central to the character -- should dictate it's time for him to hang up the webs.++ But the same things that made him become Spider-Man are still valid. The city is full of scum bags and he has the power to help people. The only time I could see him stopping is being physically unable to continue. •• I've been reading David Halberstam's THE COLDEST WINTER, about the Korean War. A recurrent theme is crusty old Master Sergeants who tell their men -- and even their officers -- that the Army is no place for a married man. A married man has other responsibilities. This is true several times over for superheroes. Especially someone like Spider-Man, who has reached that unfortunate point in his career (common to most superheroes) when the bad guys main focus is to get him. "Realistically", he has come to that place where not retiring, not making it clear to the bad guys that he is no longer a target (probably by faking his own death!) is the more "irresponsible" action. This is, of course, one of the main reasons this kind of serial fiction needs to be read not as a massive, cohesive work, but as isolated snapshots. The latest issue in which Doctor Octopus hatches a nefarious plot to capture and kill Spider-Man should be played as the "first" or "second" time he has done so (tho not implicitly stated as such), since this will be the first time this plot has been trotted out for (in a perfect world) most of the readers. (When I was a kid, reading Superman's adventures, he fought Luthor almost every issue -- this was in the days of three and four stories per issue -- and never once did our Mr. Kent pause to total up the number of times Luthor had struck before. The closest I recall to such a thing was some convicts chiding Luthor as he is returned to jail. "The warden is thinking of putting in a revolving door for you!" This acknowledged the multiple encounters, without using them to indicate passage of time or any of the other incursions into the willing suspension of disbelief.)
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