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Dave Phelps
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 1  


 QUOTE:
Any new readers have already missed out on points A and B and are only seeing point C.  That's the problem.

Less of a problem these days with all the reprints out there.  Heck, I think Essentials are up to the first Clone Saga by now.


 QUOTE:
Since a new reader can come in at any time, then the first option is the only one that can satisfy both new and old readers.  The second option is designed to satisfy only the old readers.

Not necessarily, since the one problem facing new readers is that they rarely get to be at "the ground floor" with an existing character.  By doing occasional revamps, direction changes or whatever, comic companies can give new and old readers alike a "new experience" to share.

Times like this, I wish the Watcher was real, just to show us what would have happened if the whole "continuing drama" nature of comics hadn't taken off.  I think it has led to a greater emotional connection amongst the fanbase, but is potentially alienating to new readers who want a quick 22 page burst of fun and then want to move on with their lives.  So what would have happened?  Would we have similar books today only with better sales or would it have been closer to the 50s/60s - superheroes all but die out as other genres come to the fore, but then restablish themselves later?  (If the latter, just think - we'd be on the 4th cycle of superheros.  What form would Flash and GL take this time around? :-) )

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Mike Murray
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 2  

I always laugh when the "fans" say kids should seek out SPIDER-MAN ADVENTURES or whatever they're calling the "kids" book these days.  Yeah, having kids do the work of figuring out that the main Spider-Man book is where the hero hits his pregnant wife and finds out that his enemy bent his old girlfriend over his desk, so they need to read this other version of the character - that makes sense!
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Gregg Halecki
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 3  

This thread page 8, last post.
Someone talks about 40 yr old readers swearing off and your reply is that they shouldn't be there to begin with.
Later, more recently in this thread I ask if you could write about an adult Spider-Man. You reply that you could not if you were writing for a 12 year old audience.

Am I off base by combining these two comments to come up with what seems to be you saying that Spider-Man should be written exclusively to a 12yr old demographic?
Please clarify to me if you would on your thoughts here. I don't mind disagreeing, but I would be much happier knowing what it is I am disagreeing over.

Why is it you assume that you would need to be writing to a 12 year old audience if writing about Spider-Man? Back in my time as a retailer the meat of the customers coming into the store were I would place from 15-16 up to around 24. The same thing figures into my memories about being much younger going into the comic shops. Yes, I was going into them and buying books at 12, but there was NEVER anyone my age in there. Everyone was older by a good few years. Granted, this was over ten years ago when I was selling, and over 20 years since I was 12, but when was the last time that readers from 10-14 made up the bulk? Probably not ever. Now if you shift your thoughts to writing toward a 16 or 17 year old, now you are looking at subject matter that could be focused on them and still have the older appeal.

And again, you have stated that Spider-Man should be younger because younger charachters appeal more to the kids. How do you support that when there are SO many charachters that have been popular that were obviously not young? If Spider-Man must be young to be popular (and popular with who is the obvious next question), why didn't Daredevil need to be young? Or Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Hulk, or the others need to be popular? And why didn't Power Pack and Speedball have the same success, if they have that one key feature?
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 4  


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What is it that makes comics so different from those other properties, whose fans "know their place", so to speak (and I don't mean to be harsh or insensitive to pro-change people by saying that)?

Rules of the series; simple as that.  Same reason that people may complain about not getting answers on Lost, but not being ticked off that Gilligan and the crew never seem to find a way off the island.  How the series is written, whether it be "playing with the elements and putting everything back in the box" or "continuing narrative," can be part of the reason people like the series.  Start messing around with the formula your series is built on, and fans complain.

And "illusion of change" opposed to real change is all well and good (and a much smarter approach), but you also have to be mindful that you don't bust the illusion by arbitrary rewinds that make no sense from a character perspective.

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Bruce Buchanan
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 5  

I can't let my kid read Spider-Man, because the theme of the book is not an all age read, which it should be.  Especially, since Spider-Man is still marketed to a younger crowd via toys, movies, etc.

*****************

That is a real problem. Spider-Man is probably more popular now than he's ever been, thanks to the movies. But there's a real disconnect between the movies, toys, videogames, etc, which are aimed at kids, and the comic books.

It's funny, because the whole premise of the Peter-M.J. marriage was that they were married in the newspaper strip and Marvel felt the characterization needed to be consistent across the various media. But the Spider-Man that kids see today isn't the same guy found in the comics.



Edited by Bruce Buchanan on January 15 2008 at 1:59pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 6  

Times like this, I wish the Watcher was real, just to show us what would have happened if the whole "continuing drama" nature of comics hadn't taken off. 

+++++++++

A rather fascinating thing to note here--during the Lee/Romita years of Spider-Man, the letters pages had a running discussion about whether or not Marvel should do continued stories.

Then, during the Conway/Andru years, the letters pages had a running argument about whether or not Peter should age and change.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on January 15 2008 at 2:01pm
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Mike Murray
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 7  

Then, during the Conway/Andru years, the letters pages had a running argument about whether or not Peter should age and change.
**********************************************
I wish I could feel assured that editorial paid no real attention to such a ridiculous "argument" but instead it feels like they gave the inmates the keys to the asylum.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 8  

I believe that after a few months of this back-and-forth in the letters pages, there was an editorial note which stated that, for the time being, Peter would not age and change, since that was probably in the best interest of the character. I'd have to check and confirm it, but I believe that's what it said.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 9  

I don't recall that stuff, but it seems like something that would have been done in the wake of Gwen's death.  I remember them "defending" (sorry, can't think of a better term) the move by basically saying that Peter and Gwen had reached an impasse.  Breaking them up after everything wouldn't have been believable, but taking them to the next step (i.e., marriage) didn't seem right either.  So they killed her off.  I imagine that would have led to Gwen/Peter fans asking "well, why not just marry them, then?"

I don't know if it's true or not, but I've heard that Stan had considered marrying Gwen and Peter off, and getting into the whole thing about Peter lying to Gwen about not being Spider-Man.  But then he was promoted to publisher, ran off to Hollywood and neo-scripter Gerry Conway didn't feel like he was up to the task of doing such a story.  If that's true, then it makes me wonder what might have been had Stan's promotion come a few years later, and if anyone's opinons on the topic of Spider-Man being married would have changed accordingly.

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
It's funny, because the whole premise of the Peter-M.J. marriage was that they were married in the newspaper strip and Marvel felt the characterization needed to be consistent across the various media. But the Spider-Man that kids see today isn't the same guy found in the comics.

Same guy; I just think more care needs to be taken with the stories that are told using him in the main MU.  Always thought JMS' approach was a little too adult.  Occasional hints for the older readers is one thing, but seeing Norman Osborn's "o-face" is a bit much.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 11  

But once he is being protrayed as the biblical devil (he annulled the
marriage to hurt God himself) then he has to be bound by the source
materials. I only get offended when writers portray biblical characters in
ways that are not consistent with the text. Some writers portray angels as
murderers and give the Devil way more powers than the Bible does. I
have no problem with fiction, but if writers research mythology to write
characters like Zeus and Thor accurately then they should do the same
with biblical characters.
---

Several points:

1) It's been established that Mephisto has posed in the past as the
biblical Satan. Just because Mephisto tells a presumably Christian MJ and
Peter that he's erasing the marriage to hurt God doesn't mean he has
been objectively established as the Devil.

2) There's very little source material about the Devil in the Bible.

3) If we are referring to Marvel, the idea that a blonde, Shakespeare-
speaking god is an accurate portrayal of Thor is funny.
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Gregg Halecki
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Posted: January 15 2008 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 12  

I am actually shocked to see that it took JB 30 plus pages to pull out that picture, like he does in all of these discussions.

I think there is a problem here in lumping the stories that have been put out that are not necissarily SUITED for youngsters with what some people percieve as being not INTERESTING to the youngsters. A lot of the recent stories all accross the medium may not be particularly kid friendly, but as I have already pointed out several times, that have virtually nothing to do with having the charachter evolve or not evolve.

Also, it is splitting hairs big time when talking about "change" vs the "illusion of change". I can point out what I see as a major change that Stan made in the early days but JB will say that it was just an "illusion", where JB can point out some horrific wrong that percieved as being done later as a bad change, where to me it is virtually irrelivant.
To me, having Peter leave highschool and move out from Aunt May's was a major developement that progressed the charachter into a new direction. But JB would argue that it didn't do anything to really change Peter.
Not to put words into JBs mouth, but I would hazard a guess that having Peter publish that book and go on tour to promote it was something he would cite as moving the charachter outside where he should be (JB correct me if I am wrong about your thoughts on this tid bit. I thought I remember you once commenting on it.) To me, that element was a nice bit of decoration on the wall, but nothing of signifigance.
It seems like if it is a change you agree with, you can call it an illusion, but if it is a change you don't like, then it is going too far from YOUR idea of the "core concept".
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