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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4185
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
The basic concept of Spider-Man was devised by Lee and Ditko, and won the character all of the acclaim that he deserved.
If you no longer finds that concept interesting, and so you want the concept to mutate into something else that's "more interesting", then that probably means you're bored. Which means you should find something new that does interest you. |
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Sure, but what exactly is that concept supposed to be? From the beginning Peter and the cast changed and evolved. After a few years they slowed it down a significant deal, but they never went backwards either. Never read a Stan Lee issue where Peter had to start wearing glasses again for one reason or another. He never did move back in with Aunt May.
I know there are those who feel that the "core concept" is "young student superhero." Fair enough. But for those of us who feel that the "core concept" is "normal guy superhero" who goes through the same stuff any other person does (although it takes him longer), we have evidence for our side too, y'know? After watching him graduate high school, move away from home, get his B.S., lose friends, gain friends, attend the weddings and funerals of his peers, have romantic ups and downs - sometimes leading to reconciliation and other times to break-ups, etc., etc., is marriage really that much of a stretch?
If someone wanted to Spider-Man to go on a bold mission into outer space to seek out new life and new civilizations, then yeah, I'd say it's time to move on. But simply wanting him to stay on the course he's already on isn't "demanding they change the core concept."
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8158
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 2
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I think "Law & Order " proves that you can be self-contained, yet compelling enough to want more, at the same time.
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Gregg Halecki Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005 Posts: 759
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 3
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Again with the "if you don't want it to be like the way it was, then you have outgrown it" arguement.
If i want something to change because I got bored of it, I have outgrown it. Fine.
Conversely, if you like something and then it changes and you don't like the changes, than IT has outgrown YOU.
What is the sense in insisting that it change back to sout you, wien I kept pace with the changes and enjoy them.
If you say that I have outgrown comics and should quit, then I say that comics have outgrown you and refer you to the back issue bins.
Again...Peter HAS grown up. He HAS changed. He DID get married. How is it that enjoying the medium in the way that is has been for the last 30 years mean that i have outgrown it. have I outgrown it or have I outgrown what YOU think it is?
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4185
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
About the Law $ Order vs Lost analogy....
Someone may be more inclined to sit through a random episode of Law & Order absolutely. But look at it in the long run. |
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You might not want to do that... :-) The thing about L&O is that a random episode can appeal to hardcore fans and casual fans alike. You don't need to know a thing about any of the cast members to understand (and in most cases appreciate) what's going on. Something like Lost, you really do need to be a fan to properly enjoy an episode, because otherwise you miss a lot.
It's true that shows like Lost do tend to be more likely to create "hardcore fans" than L&O. But at the same time, it's more likely to lose people who simply don't want to make that kind of investment in a TV show or who feel there is no point in watching unless they want to spend $$$ to catch up on what they've missed.
IIRC, back in the day "fan favorite" tended to be a kiss of death, because it meant only the hardcore fans were watching/reading.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | 5
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Spider-Man is more than just a guy with spider powers. Sure, if you're talented enough, you can make a wise-cracking married superhero interesting, but you've lost the original character in order to do this.
It's like giving Batman super powers, revealing he's from another planet, and forcing him to get a real job (maybe at a newspaper). The result might be good but why ruin 1 character to create another when you could just create 2 different characters.
The Peter Parker who appeared in the comics for the past 20 years, since the wedding, could have been a different hero entirely. I mean, we never really saw his supporting cast anymore and Aunt May was dead for part of that time.
But whatever you do, it's a mistake to eliminate a *unique* character (teenage superhero who is not a sidekick, who has money problems, and who lives with his elderly aunt).
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 6
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It's true that shows like Lost do tend to be more likely to create "hardcore fans" than L&O. But at the same time, it's more likely to lose people who simply don't want to make that kind of investment in a TV show or who feel there is no point in watching unless they want to spend $$$ to catch up on what they've missed.
*******
SER: You can't really argue against 18 years versus 6 (at best).
I will concede that LOST needs to be told the way it is -- sort of like Nip/Tuck. And I'm fine with the show not surviving for as long as a result. However, I often think that a lot of modern comics have fallen apart in the way that The X-FILES did. The X-FILES had the potential to be another L&O (I've always preferred the "monster of the week" episodes) but got so bogged won with its own mythology that it burned out.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133584
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 7
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Could you write compelling, interesting super hero stories that included a
backdrop with the main charachter being a guy at age 26, married with a
kid or two? I think you could. I think a lot of writers in the business could.
Of course. But not if my primary audience was 12 year olds. They don't
want to read about their parents being superheroes.
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Gregg Halecki Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005 Posts: 759
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 8
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It is somewhat fair to point out that a lot of possible viewers pass on Lost because they don't want to make that commitment to getting involved in the show on a weekly basis. It is in many ways like the comic industry over the last decades where if you miss an issue you are lost on the next one. But only to a point.
What is more of a commitment, making sure that you are home on Sunday night at 9:00-10:00 PM every sing week for the next six months (or whatever), or remembering to stop by the comic shop sometime that month to pick up the book?
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Zaki Hasan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8105
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 9
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There are also people who wait for the DVD, which in this day and age has become a lot like waiting for the trade or HC.
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Donald Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 3601
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 10
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You are discounting the financial commitment...At 3.95 apiece that's a significant commitment when you need to get at least 5-6 issues just to get this story arc complete, not to mention the tie ins if you happen to want to follow something like House of M.
This is a long cry from 2-3 issue story arc, with plot devices dropped along the way to allow further development later.
and back then it 35 cent an issue...
Don
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133584
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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There are also people who wait for the DVD, which in this day and age has
become a lot like waiting for the trade or HC.
Hardly. With the millions upon millions of dollars made by movies -- even
movies that don't do as well as the studios might wish -- the number of
dollars diverted into DVD sales is relatively minor. Especially when it is
remembered that many who see the movie in the theaters also buy
the DVDs. But with numbers as small as what comics presently pull in,
those who "wait for the trade" are more likely to be guaranteeing that there
won't be a trade, since the original series didn't sell well enough.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133584
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Posted: 14 January 2008 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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and back then it 35 cent an issue...
That's a deceptive number. I saw a study, some years back, that suggested
comics had done no more than keep pace with inflation, with one exception.
When they went from 12 to 15 cents, that was evidently a hike more than
costs really demanded.
Those who invoke the "low" cost of comics in bygone decades forget that
everything was lower, including salaries. When I was 12 and getting a
dollar a week allowance, 10’ seemed like a heckuva lot of money!
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