Death has become too easy. Writers, when looking for something dramatic, think "Let's KILL someone important!" It has become the lazy writer's way to drama. Much like using foul language to portray emotion. The REAL WORLD argument is used in both cases. Writers will argue that int he real world people die, and that people CURSE. I would argue that the Marvel Unvierse should NEVER be the REAL WORLD. As an editor I was often confronted by a writer who woudl try to make an argument for using the DAMN or HELL in a Code Approved book. "In real life this is what the character would say!" I would calmly respond that this wasn't real life, and that as WRTIERS we are get to create the reality.

And don't get me started on using the F word and then calling it "MATURE"

Is this thread drifting?

Howard

Tim O'Neill wrote: My one beef is this Mary Jane as a superhero element. [...]Supermodels don't tinker in labs or build big muscles. They eat celery, date rock stars, and walk the runway.

Perhaps she is on a cocaine binge, who's to say!

And in the end, Nate's death was completely unecessary to the story. As I
recall, he was little more than cannon fodder. I remember being kind of
repulsed by how it was done, and how it was marketed.

******

How was he killed?

QUOTE: Just wanted to add--and I think I said this earlier in this thread--that Joe Q and JMS should have stuck with their guns and brought Gwen back as a result of OMD.

Well, that would have made it a lot easier for me to pass on BND... (eventually I caved and picked it up)  Hell, I probably would have dropped Marvel cold turkey because of that.

I agree that Pete needs to stop visiting the bridge, but as a living supporting character, Gwen would have zero relevance these days so they'd be pissing on a classic story for no reason.  Bad enough Joe Q is creatively bankrupt to suggest such a thing; I'm just glad the creative teams were smart enough to say no.

Just wanted to add--and I think I said this earlier in this thread--that Joe
Q and JMS should have stuck with their guns and brought Gwen back as a
result of OMD.

And keep in mind, the story of her death in ASM 121-122 is still one of
my all-time favorite comic-book stories. But I think a lot of good would
have come out of her return.

For one thing, no more stories where Spider-Man is back at that damn
bridge reliving her death. It was poignant the first time. At this point, it's
a dead horse that's been beaten to the point where the skin has fallen off.

And as a wonderful side effect, "Sins Past" would have been completely
and totally erased.

+++++++++++++

I certainly agree that the horse has been flogged to atoms at this point, but I'm not so sure about bringing Gwen back.

I'd personally prefer it if she and Osborn stayed dead, and were only rarely referenced. I love the death of Gwen story, and think it's one of the best Spider-Man stories ever done.

The problem is that people reference that story in BIG ways, with entire stories built around Gwen and/or her death. I wouldn't mind an occasional reference, though.

Perfect example--in the Hobgoblin's first appearance, Roger Stern had Peter briefly recount the story of Norman Osborn in his head, with a quick reference to Osborn having killed Gwen. Then there's one little moment of reflection where that recollection triggers a sad "Gwen--!" in Peter's mind before Joe Robertson comes over and speaks to him. The scene provided some exposition which pertained to the story at hand for new readers, while also acknowledging and honoring the past for older readers.

The occassional little nod to those past events is okay, but story after story dwelling on it is a problem. How many times have we been back to that bridge? How many times has Spider-Man saved someone who's been thrown from the bridge, or fallen off of it? Way too many.

Although Gwen has technically come back in a number of ways (Clone Gwen, Ultimate Gwen, Movie Gwen, etc.), I think bringing her back for good in the mainsteam Marvel Universe would be a mistake, since it would put even more focus on a character who should only be occasionally remembered. Better to introduce new love interests, and break new ground.

And "Sins Past" could (and should) be exterminated in any number of different ways. Bringing Gwen back would be the final step in completely destroying the power and meaning of ASM # 121-122.

A living Gwen would basically be a walking reminder of that famous "death" story, and writers would inevtiably try to make history repeat itself, or something else along those lines.

>How was he killed?

Nathan, at one point, attempted to defend May, but his death was caused a little bit later when he was grabbed by the Vulture and suffered a heart attack....

Y'know, I wonder if you will agree with this or not, Glenn, but much of my exposure to Gwen came from reading the Essentials in one shot, and I have to say....Gwen wasn't that great of a girlfriend. She was downright bitchy and stuck-up in her first several appearances, and even after she softened up a bit, several issues were spent on Gwen doubting Peter's manliness (but of course he ran from the scene to suit up as Spider-Man and save the day) and just wasn't as nice to him as the legends appeared to make her out to be. I think that if she hadn't died, she might have faded off someplace eventually anyway, only to be replaced by another girl.

++++++++++++

Having extensively studied the character's history, I tend to disagree with that assessment a little bit.

When Gwen was introduced, she was smart, gorgeous, and a bit aggressive, primarily because she liked Peter and mistakenly believed he was snubbing her.

Later, after Mary Jane was introduced (and John Romita took over the art chores), Gwen became more innocent, more emotional, more conservative, primarily to contrast with the dynamic and aggressive Mary Jane. She was depicted as sweet, smart, and vulnerable, and despite her love for Peter, she was often hurt by his erratic behavior. Despite this, she stayed loyal and faithful, and was always very proper and morally-upright.

In some ways, she was the glue that held the group of friends together. Peter was an orphan who suffered from the problems his dual-identity brought him, Harry had to deal with an emotionally-distant father, and Mary Jane was flighty and superficial (and was later revealed to have come from a broken home). Gwen was the straight arrow in the group, and after her death, the group sort of fell apart.

Her relationship with Peter had its various ups and downs--the worst being the death of Gwen's father (supposedly at Spider-Man's hands), but they managed to work through it. Later, Peter feared that Gwen was possibly seeing Flash Thompson on the side, but she reassured him that this wasn't the case, and so the couple reconciled for the last time prior to Gwen's murder.

And I don't care what JMS' rationale was. I don't care if he wanted to give Gwen more "depth" or to show that everyone makes mistakes. The rock-bottom truth of the matter is that the Gwen Stacy seen in those old stories would NEVER have done what JMS said she did.

It is quite simply impossible, and flies in the face of everything we know about her. Bad Writing 101!