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Brendan Howard Byrne Robotics Member
FAQ Master Supreme
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4943
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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Well put, Stephen.
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4502
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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Ted I like the way you think! ;)
When I first heard about BND I thought it was just what the books needed, and has been missing for awhile. I was especially excited to hear the supporting cast was being expanded. Now though it seems that the good stuff that is being added will be at the expense of things that didn't NEED to be removed.
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Bruce Buchanan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4797
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think JMS and Quesada have greatly infantilized Peter over the years, in his relationship to Tony Stark (the "father figure" he had never needed before. Even the first Spider-Man film got that right -- "I have a father. His name is Ben Parker.") and his leaning on Aunt May. Before Aunt May knew his identity, she was part of his responsibility -- now she was someone he could confide in about his problems.
**************
Stephen, while I agree that Peter's relationship with Tony Stark was an unhealthy one, I think they've gone too far in the other direction, making him too "grown up" in the past 20 years or so.
I'm not as down on the marriage as some people here, but I do think Spider-Man worked best as a student, single with no full-time job or other adult responsibilities.
I also don't think it's fair to say Peter "abandons the responsibility and adulthood of marriage for the comfort and security of youth (represented by having his "mother" figure around to take care of him)." He made a difficult, but necessary, choice to save Aunt May's life. Given the circumstances, I don't see how he could've made any other choice.
Edited by Bruce Buchanan on 02 January 2008 at 12:44pm
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Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 4
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Another dumb gimmick that will alienate readers old and new alike only to be surpassed with something more idiotic next year. w/e
Edited by Martin Redmond on 02 January 2008 at 1:36pm
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Pedro Bouça Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 1465
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 5
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My problem with this story is really the execution. The "deal with the devil" aspect is REALLY offensive to a lot of people these days (I don't care myself) and, as a lot of people said, Mephisto really "won" that one.
If it was, say, a neutral figure like the Shaper of Worlds (like in that proposal JB and you had) or something like that, it would have been great. Or maye, like it was rumored, Loki paying a debt to Spider-Man to save May but, trickster god he is, taking away the marriage on the process. But surely that was too much to expect from that story's creative team, huh?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 6
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Something that bugs me is: Spider-man and Mephisto???? Yeah, its a shared universe, but Spider-man didn't crossover to the mystical/magical/supernatural side of the street too often (that I can recall). his villains are gangsters, crazed scientists and jumped up thugs. He prowls the rooftops and alleyways of the city not the netherworld. Spider-man's world just doent fit Mephistos.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 7
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The mystical aspects certainly fit in with other recent stories, such as the Spider-Totem stuff, The Other, and Spidey and Loki eating hot dogs together.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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Those things arent very "Spider-Man" either.
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Larry Morris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007 Location: United States Posts: 622
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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<<I also don't think it's fair to say Peter "abandons the responsibility and adulthood of marriage for the comfort and security of youth (represented by having his "mother" figure around to take care of him)." He made a difficult, but necessary, choice to save Aunt May's life. Given the circumstances, I don't see how he could've made any other choice.>>
I'm with you. I'm not for this story, but my problem isn't one of being morally offended by Peter and MJ's actions. This does not horribly taint them for me. Last 5-6 years, I can list several things that Marvel comics has done with characters that have really tainted them for me, but this isn't among them.
Yes, Peter made a deal with the devil to save May, but the deal wasn't something like murder Norman Osborn so she can live. The deal was give up what you love most in this world to save her. And it's not like the decision was made without MJ's input. Peter is sacrificing some of his personal happiness so May can live.
This isn't May dying of natural causes like in ASM 400. There, Peter didn't go around trying desparately to save her any way he could. Here, she was shot because of his being Spider-Man. That Peter feels incredibly guilty over this is completely in character, IMO. And as Bruce said, it's not May's life versus MJ's. MJ is still alive.
That's not an endorsement of the story. If someone claims that Peter looks stupid for making a deal with someone he knows he should never trust,. I'm not arguing. Stupid is not necessarily immoral, though.
I don't know why Quesada didn't use another character for the reset. A more heroic or at least more neutral character. Maybe there is an instory reason that will eventually reveal itself, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Why the reset instead of divorce or death? Quesada said that both those would age Peter's character too much. Whether we agree or not, those were never viable options for him.
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | 10
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The only thing I've read about this storyline is what's contained in this thread, and I feel like I must be missing a big piece of the puzzle. My understanding of it is this: Aunt May is dying (dead?) and Peter and Mary Jane make a deal with Mephisto wherein they sacrifice their marriage to bring May back. If feel like there must be a lot more to this, otherwise I'm not understanding the reactions.
1) Sacrificing one's own happiness (relationship) to bring back a loved one seems pretty noble to me. 2) What exactly does Mephisto get out of the deal that makes him "win?"
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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Those things arent very "Spider-Man" either.
+++++++
No argument there!
Really, when was the last time that the "real" Spider-Man was around? Before JMS' run? Before the Clone Saga? Before the marriage?
How long has it been since things went completely off the rails?
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Todd Douglas Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 July 2004 Posts: 4101
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
I don't know why Quesada didn't use another character for the reset. A more heroic or at least more neutral character. Maybe there is an instory reason that will eventually reveal itself, but I wouldn't bet on it. |
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My gut tells me it's an escape hatch built into the story. If the new(/old?) status quo goes over like the proverbial lead balloon, that "other shoe" I mentioned that feels like it should drop, will drop, and the reset will be undone.
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