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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134847
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 1
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The problem springs in no small part from the notion of "writing for the
trade". But writers who do that end up treating the issues as literally
chapters of a larger story, and chapters, as we all know, don't have to
have major events, they only have to point toward major events.
"The Trial of Galactus" trade paperback was assembled back in the day
when we used the word "chapter" symbolically. Each issue was thought of
as part of an ongoing "novel", and we were always "writing in the middle".
When I suggested "Trial", it was with the intention of editing the pages to
remove everything that didn't have a direct bearing on the Galactus
storyline, perhaps adding a few captions here and there to sew things
together. In the end, we added one caption, and, because I had learned
from Kirby to begin scenes in the first panel of a page and end them in
the last -- whenever possible -- the pieces slid together with astonishing
precision. There's even one scene where a page ends with Sue walking
thru the Baxter building, and the next page begins with what appears to
be the next moment -- from an issue actually published two months
later!
That's how you "write for the trade"!!
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15772
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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'm sure you're aware that the marriage began in the paper, because Stan
wanted to up the soap opera elements of the strip, and he was quite
surprised to find that Shooter had brought it over into the comics.
+++++++++++
Yep.
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Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2710
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 3
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Brian Mayer wrote:
You are right, Matthew, they wouldn't be [good jumping on point books], because they happened, in some cases, years ago.
Brian, either I am doing a horrible job making my point or you're doing an
exceptionally artful job dodging it. I'm going to assume failure on my part
and try again.
I chose Infinite Crisis as the book to describe because a) it was something
I'm familiar with and b) it was the best example I can think of a recent,
completely self-absorbed continuity fix book. It didn't make sense unless
you had at LEAST a grounding in Crisis on Infinite Earths among other
titles.
It's like being the non-Information Technology guy at the meeting and
you can't follow along with the jargon. Do the others have a responsibility
to slow down and bring you on board, or should they remain completely
self-absorbed and keep you outside the cult?
The point is, Brian, that somebody tired to jump into comics WITH that
bloody series at the time it was published. For some poor unlucky sap,
Infinite Crisis was their first comic book exposure to the superheroes he'd
previously only seen at the movies and watched on TV. Do you think we
captured a customer for life?
Continuity is a tool. I use my tools to build useful things. I've got a lot of
tools, but I only use the ones suited for the job. And I replace my tools
when they become worn out or better tools come along. It doesn't need to
get any more complicated than that.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 21 January 2008 at 3:42pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134847
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 4
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I often find myself being surprised at how deeply immersed in the mythology some fans -- and therefore, of late, some pros -- really are. So much that they cannot take even a small step back to appreciate how daunting it can all be to a newcomer. The very notion that ^^***** could consider a "homework assignment" in the front of every issue, something that new readers had to wade thru before they can even start on the comic proper, reveals how far off course things have gone. This is the same company, after all, where Jim Shooter commanded the removal of the few lines of top copy that used to adorn every splash page ("Spawned in the heart of a nuclear explosion…" "Children of the atom…" etc) because he felt even they should be unnecessary if the writer was doing his job properly.Doing the job properly is the nail on which this whole tapestry tears, of course. For the past fifteen or twenty years, we have seen "the job" being inexorably redefined, until laziness, sloppiness, and a complete lack of professionalism have become the gold standard. It's like the old(ish) riddle: How many Microsoft technicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None. They are going to redefine Darkness™ as the industry standard.
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Rich Abreu
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 537
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 5
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One major problem that I had with the first issue of Brand New Day: Peter Parkers accepts a hand out from Harry Osborn. That just felt wrong to me. The Peter Parker that I know wouldn't take a handout like that. Even the movie captured this better then the comic. Peter refuses a job offer from Norman Osborn and Norman responds, "You want to earn your way, I respect that Peter".
Am I wrong?
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7592
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 6
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re: recaps
I'll admit to being one of those who complained about about the recaps in WONDER WOMAN; each time they occured, the plot and drama came to a grinding, crashing halt for a recap of something that was probably already semi-recapped in the previous issue. I've never been so accutely aware of in-plot exposition, and the flow of the storylines suffered.
I am quite a fan of pre-story recaps, and have never once heard a reader -- new or old -- complain about them feeling like "homework." The process works just fine for dramatic TV series, with their recaps and summaries at the beginning of the episodes. Imagine, instead, if each episode had to stop constantly for mid-episode exposition? Blech.
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Rich Abreu
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 537
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 7
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About in-story exposition:
They can be annoying if you are reading a succession of issues in one sitting, but if I am reading as I buy it then they are critical. In fact, one of the most annoying things about some of the comics these days is that I have no idea what is going on because I don't remember what happened last month and they just pick up where things left off. Do they expect me to sit there and memorize these things like they were scripture? I really do have more important things to do.
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Bruce Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4797
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 8
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One major problem that I had with the first issue of Brand New Day: Peter Parkers accepts a hand out from Harry Osborn. That just felt wrong to me. The Peter Parker that I know wouldn't take a handout like that. Even the movie captured this better then the comic. Peter refuses a job offer from Norman Osborn and Norman responds, "You want to earn your way, I respect that Peter".
Am I wrong?
******************
Not saying you are wrong, Rich. But even way back in the Lee/Romita days, Peter accepted Harry's offer to live with him rent-free, with Harry's dad picking up the tab for the apartment.
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Allen Moyer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2008
Posts: 43
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 9
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I'll admit to being one of those who complained about about the recaps
in WONDER WOMAN; each time they occured, the plot and drama came to a
grinding, crashing halt for a recap of something that was probably
already semi-recapped in the previous issue. I've never been so
accutely aware of in-plot exposition, and the flow of the storylines suffered.
---
I agree, they could have been much better handled. When artfully
incorporated into the narrative, such exposition should be all but
invisible, offering the reader pertinent background information without
clubbing them over the head with the idea that they're being brought up
to speed. Few are the writers who have truly mastered this.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17751
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 10
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I'll have to reread those WW caps. I don't recall being bothered by them at
all.
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Mark Swann
Byrne Robotics Member
Boring Troll
Joined: 18 January 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
| That's how you "write for the trade"!! |
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As with so many other things, you were way ahead of your "time," JB!
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Marc Guggenheim
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 489
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| Posted: 21 January 2008 at 8:25pm | IP Logged | 12
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JB wrote:
"I once found myself confronted by an internet poster (as always from the
safe anonymity of an fake screen name) listing all the good Byrne
stories, and telling me, in so many words, that they don't
count."
They were retconned.
(I figure since we're talkin' Spider-Man and all...)
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