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Jeff Albertson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 24 March 2007 Location: United States Posts: 451
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 1
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Thanks, Matthew!
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Brian Mayer Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 June 2007 Posts: 216
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 2
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None of those series are a good jumping on point for new readers. *****
You are right, Matthew, they wouldn't be, because they happened, in some cases, years ago. They aren't the current book or current story. I totally agree they you want people to want to know more, and eventually they will. And it seems we agree that you can give them a small bit to get them started and "jump on", which I think we the original point back there. Then, I think you can just feed them what they need to know as they need to know it. But there would be no reason to have to explain Sins Past, The Other, the Spider-Totem or even the Green Goblin's death & rebirth and so on in order for a new reader to jump onto One More Day. Heck, you really don't need to explain One More Day to a new reader who decided to jump onto Brand New Day.
It seems like the ony people who need full explanations are those of us who have been reading comics for years, maybe read Spidey at one time or another, dropped out, and then are readon on the forums about something going on and demand an update on everything that has happened in the last twenty years.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134840
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 3
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But. . . . . this is a discussion we should not even be having. Did Lee and
Kirby's FF need a "jumping on point"? Lee and Ditko's SPIDER-MAN?
I started reading SUPERMAN comics when the series was almost 20 years
old. First story I read gave me everything I needed to dive right in. And it
was eight pages long!
Every issue is the first issue for somebody.
The very idea of "jumping on points" goes right to what's wrong with
superhero comics today. Every issue should be a "jumping on point".
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134840
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 4
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Addendum: One of the most often leveled complaints about my run on
WONDER WOMAN was "too much exposition!" Readers wrote in to complain
that "we already know all this! Get on with the story!"
This pointed up two things -- how small and insular the WW readership was,
and how "clubbish" comics have really become. And many of the club
members who are already there really don't want anything to help new
members find their way.
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joe glasgow Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 February 2007 Posts: 176
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 5
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On the subject of jumping on points...
I feel that there are no jumping on points when all you ever get are cross title story lines. Obvious statement I know but If there are multiple character / team titles then a story running accross all of those titles is delays a jump on point for new readers until that particular story line is over. This seems to have been addresses in Amazing Spider-Man becoming the sole Spider-Title but with a 3 times a month release schedule (If they keep up to date). X-Men however, has since the Mutant Massacre had almost no convenient jumping on point (this is based on going over the DVD released a while ago since I stopped collecting this line ages ago - can't remember what my Jumping Off Point was).
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 6
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I think cover art plays into that concept significantly. Honestly, covers suck today. They're nothing but over-sized trading cards. Where are the covers that give the prospective reader an idea of what's going on inside? That pique the readers' interest?
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Eric White Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 October 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1072
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 7
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When I first started reading comics, I had no problem with the DC books but
it took a while for me to get what was going on with the Marvel books, and
that was around 1972.
I have no idea how a young reader would be able to have all the knowledge
they need to read todays comics unless they just love the characters enough
to stick with things until it all starts making sense.
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Emery Calame Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5773
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 8
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Oh the Marvel collection DVD's are awesome as an illustration of the big changes in comics writing partly because you hit this point (around 1987 or so) where you suddenly stop getting full stories because the story was longer than one issue and crossed over into some other book thats not on the DVD. It happens some before then but after that point it's become the rule and not an occasional thing. The excessive cross over stuff doesn't seem to slow down much until the late ninteties(96-97) and by then the writing and art gets pretty awful. It's fascinating. And a little heart breaking.
Edited by Emery Calame on 21 January 2008 at 11:22am
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Brian Hunt Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5180
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 9
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Addendum: One of the most often leveled complaints about my run on WONDER WOMAN was "too much exposition!" Readers wrote in to complain that "we already know all this! Get on with the story!"
This pointed up two things -- how small and insular the WW readership was, and how "clubbish" comics have really become. And many of the club members who are already there really don't want anything to help new members find their way.
I appreciated the exposition for WW because I had never bought a WW book before your run. The same went for most DC books before you started working there. It was nice not to be lost, or have to go buy a bunch of previous back issues.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15772
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 10
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Pleased to see this thread back on-topic.
I'm still on the fence about these changes, and wonder what the ultimate result will be.
However, the devil lurking in my subconscious is laughing right now. For a few years, people who wanted a married Spider-Man have said, "If you want to read about a young, single Spider-Man, just buy Ultimate Spider-Man or Marvel Adventures Spider-Man!", as if those are good substitutes for the real thing.
Well, now that the marriage has been undone, that little devil of mine is temped to shout, "If you want to read about a married Spider-Man, go buy a newspaper!".
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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I wonder if that would help to make an argument for trades reprinting the newspaper strip? I'd like to see those...
The "jumping-on point" argument is probably why Marvel publishes their titles with that glossy black opening page, recapping previous events in the storyline. It's an extremely poor alternative to good storytelling, but it does demonstrate some awareness on their part of the problem. Sadly, having "fixed" it now, I don't think they're going to do anything more about it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134840
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 12
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I'm sure you're aware that the marriage began in the paper, because Stan
wanted to up the soap opera elements of the strip, and he was quite
surprised to find that Shooter had brought it over into the comics.
(One of Marvel's biggest failed "events". Paid a hotshot designer to come
up with a wedding dress for MJ. Got the ceremony to take place in the
middle of a ball game, with actors in costume. And the General Public
merely yawned. Typical example of missing the point. DC had recently
pulled a quick scam by having Clark and Lois get married -- oops! Turns
out it's a flashback to Earth 2! -- and Marvel wanted to steal their
thunder. Except Lois and Clark are cultural icons. Peter Parker? Most
people back then -- and maybe even now! -- could not have told you the
name of the guy behind Spider-Man's mask. And Spider-Man getting
married? How many civilians knew he wasn't?)
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