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Simon Bucher-Jones Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 835
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 6:26am | IP Logged | 1
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#1 dealing with Sins of the Past & MJ
a) The spidy-twins are gunned down while attempting to rob a bank. Spider-Man almost saves them. However the autopsy determines they aren't and can never have been truely alive, instead they are advanced androids. A spool of tape disgorged from one, proves to be instructions from what ever evil Mastermind set this up. MJ was mind-controlled on a 'photo-shoot' to play along.
b) MJ tearfully leaves Peter, to find herself, unsure of what other commands may be in her subconsciousness. [Possibly goes of on retreat with Doc Strange or into therapy with Doc Sampson, but off stage]
c) Spider-man severely defeats the villian.
#2 Dealing with the 'public id'. Hm, trickier.
Simon BJ
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Taavi Suhonen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 April 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 1544
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
The Green Goblin definitly should have stayed dead. So should have
Aunt May. Does Spider-Man have any other characters who have come back
from the dead? |
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Agree on the Goblin, but disagree on Aunt May - she shouldn't have been killed in the first place.
As for other "back from the dead" characters in Spider-Man: Doctor
Octopus was killed by Kaine, then resurrected by the Hand - like Aunt
May, he shouldn't have died anyway.
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Bruce Buchanan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4797
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 3
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I totally agree that Aunt May shouldn't have died in the first place. But I'm a bit torn on bringing her back - it's nice having her around, but bringing her back seems to cheapen an important moment in Spider-Man history (not to mention a fantastic story in ASM #400).
Also agree on the Green Goblin. He was dead and, unlike the typical villain death, his death meant something. He should've stayed dead - the Hobgoblin, as originally conceived by Roger Stern, was a fitting successor to the Goblin legacy.
Dr. Octopus never should've died in the first place. Not sure what the thinking was with that one.
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Brad Danson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 1440
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 4
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Glenn Greenberg wrote:
Though it could be argued that the goal of the story could have been to
make the readers DISLIKE Gwen so much, and be so turned off to her once the truth was revealed, that they would forget about her once and for all.
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Brad Danson wrote:
All we are saying is that we *think* JMS was intending to make the readers dislike Gwen. |
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Certainly reads like it to me.
Glenn Greenberg wrote:
Do me a favor, Brad--speak for yourself, okay??? |
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You got it. Sorry for discussing your point. Won't happen again.
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13705
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 5
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What's the argument for saying the Green Goblin (Norman) should have stayed dead? Just curious.
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Andrew Kneath Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 2275
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 6
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#1 dealing with Sins of the Past & MJ
a) The spidy-twins are gunned down while attempting to rob a bank. Spider-Man almost saves them. However the autopsy determines they aren't and can never have been truely alive, instead they are advanced androids. A spool of tape disgorged from one, proves to be instructions from what ever evil Mastermind set this up. MJ was mind-controlled on a 'photo-shoot' to play along.
Nah, the MJ Pete married (who lied to him about Gwen) was a Clone all along! The Osborn / Gwen thing was a sick lie dreamt up by Norman in a long term plan to finally break Peter.
Alternatively the real MJ was brainwashed during the time she kidnapped back in the Mackie/Byrne era! Yes JB is to blame for Sins Past! ;-)
Or alternatively let's just reboot the whole mess and be done with it!
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Brad Danson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 1440
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:36am | IP Logged | 7
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Larry Morris wrote:
But if we can both agree on your second line because it's so apparent,
shouldn't JMS have been able to see this? Unless, maybe that wasn't
the intent of the story. |
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Sure he saw it...but like I said previously...Gwen was perfect. Flawless. Long time readers weren't going to forget about her. Look at how much passion you have right now for a character that has been dead 30 years. Something is not right about that. I *think* JMS was trying to tear her down so that eventually long-time readers would quit clamoring for a new Gwen reference.
I can't make that point anymore clear. If you don't agree, fine. Move along.
Edited by Brad Danson on 25 September 2007 at 7:36am
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Andrew Kneath Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 2275
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 8
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What's the argument for saying the Green Goblin (Norman) should have stayed dead? Just curious.
I confess I'm kind of glad they brought Norman back, he's a great villain and the fact that he know's Peter's Identity makes him all the more dangerous.
However if the Hobgoblin had not been wasted as a character then they would not have needed to bring the original Goblin back!
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 9
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I totally agree that Aunt May shouldn't have died in the first place. But I'm a bit torn on bringing her back - it's nice having her around, but bringing her back seems to cheapen an important moment in Spider-Man history (not to mention a fantastic story in ASM #400).
***************
I think THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN (classic version) is a fantastic story but I'm glad that it "didn't" happen in actual continuity. What I liked about "imaginary" stories is that it gave readers great stories based on concepts that should never be part of the real continuity: Superman marrying Lois Lane, Superman dying, Superman's secret identity being exposed.
I think Aunt May's death is the same way. That should have been the Marvel version of an "imaginary story" (a "What If") and that wouldn't "cheapen" the story -- any more than THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN is cheapened.
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13705
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 10
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I agree 100% with everything Stephen just posted above. That's what makes the Silver Age comics so much fun. They are totally unencumbered by continuity and all the anal retentiveness that plagues the hobby today.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 11
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What's the argument for saying the Green Goblin (Norman) should have stayed dead? Just curious.
****************
SER: My own opinion is that the Goblin had a definite shelf life once he learned Spider-Man's identity (he could have continued to exist as he was if the audience had learned he was Norman Osborn or if Spider-Man knew). The only option after that was the make him the King Tut of villains -- terrorizing Spider-Man with the fear that he might expose his identity to the world (this was before Spider-Man became his own worst enemy and did this sort of thing himself) before losing his memory again.
Now, I'm a big believer in the concept of the "turnover" comic book audience, so I'm not complaining necessarily about the repetitiveness of this sort of plot but I do think that it shifts the focus from the Green Goblin as a threat to the world but to the Green Goblin as a threat to Spider-Man specifically. It goes to what bugged me about every Spider-Man film -- the bad guy kidnaps Mary Jane, which then serves as the personal motivation for Spider-Man to stop the bad guy rather than his *leaving* Mary Jane's side to fight the bad guy (a more noble act, I think).
Anyway, this is my long-winded version of saying that I prefered the mysterious Ditko Goblin. Stern brought that back with the Hobgoblin.
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Glenn Greenberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6746
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Posted: 25 September 2007 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 12
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<<<Doc Sampson>>>
Why do people keep making this typo?
Like fingernails on a chalkboard.
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