<<Because Tom DeFalco and I have had a long-running debate about this...! >>

Given that Tom was the EIC at the time the story was conceived...it would have ended up however he wanted, but...the plan was for Ben to be the real deal...with a back door built in.

And I will say hi to Terry for you.

H

<<JMS thinks there's a 3-month timeline "gap" because ASM # 116-119 were reprints of the story in Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine # 1. Of course, he fails to realize that those issues were altered so as to fit into the then-current Spider-Man continuity (for example, Spider-Man is wearing the cheapie mask he obtained during the gang war story a few issues prior). And, y'know, three issues of a series don't automatically equal three months in "comic-time".>>

Thanks for typing that out so I didn't have to.

<<Also, I have yet to see an explanation from JMS of when this indescretion of Gwen's actually occurred in the timeline. The gent who wrote the "Squandered Legacy" articles about the Hobgoblin (which we're discussing in that other thread) theorized that it happened when Gwen went to thank Osborn (off-panel, of course) after he helped rescue her from the Kingpin in ASM # 61, and this fan explanation was officially adopted by M***** in one of the OHOTMU: Spider-Man one-shots!>>

<<Another thing that should be noted: JMS added insult to injury to the whole thing by establishing that in all the time they were together, Gwen and Peter never slept with each other. That's right--she never slept with her longtime boyfriend, but she had no problem going to bed with Norman Osborn in the heat of the moment.

And JMS REALLY didn't understand what kind of message that would be sending out about Gwen?>>

THANK YOU! 

<<I guess Tom wins the debate then! He insisted that there was a back door built in.>>

So the original plan was that Ben was the real deal?
It's been several years since I read Life of Reilly.  I recall you explaining the thought processes that were going on behind the scenes in great detail, but it has been awhile.

I remember being surprised at what you said about Harras and the baby.  That once Mongraine took the baby that there was never a plan to bring it back.  That this would leave some sense of hope, but the baby would never be found.  When I read that story, I never thought the baby had died, I thought Mongraine had it and eventually Peter and MJ would find out.  Then "the package".  Everyone thought that was the baby, not Aunt May. That was a couple years later, though.

Back to the Clone Saga.  It was too much for me to be told that the Peter I'd read for 20 years was not the real Peter.  I liked Ben Reilly, though, just not as the real Peter Parker.    Ya ask me, the character who came off as the most likeable in that story, start to finish, and it was Ben Reilly.  He always put Peter and MJ's feelings before his own, even when he thought he was the real Peter Parker. 

That was in a OHOTMU?  I do remember reading that article.  To me, it's clear that JMS wasn't thinking in that timeframe.  Not when he's placing Gwen's months long trip to Europe in ASM 116-118. 3 moths of the pregnancy took place in 4 issues, but she got pregnant 55 issues before? 

My thinking was that he was placing it shortly after her father died and Peter and her were having problems.  You're right in that I never saw JMS flat out say, issuewise,  when the sex occurred.

<<I guess Tom wins the debate then! He insisted that there was a back door built in.>>

As I said, he was the EIC at the time, and he would not approve the concept without a "back door".

H

That was in a OHOTMU?  I do remember reading that article.  To me, it's clear that JMS wasn't thinking in that timeframe.  Not when he's placing Gwen's months long trip to Europe in ASM 116-118. 3 moths of the pregnancy took place in 4 issues, but she got pregnant 55 issues before? 

My thinking was that he was placing it shortly after her father died and Peter and her were having problems.  You're right in that I never saw JMS flat out say, issuewise,  when the sex occurred.

+++++++++++

There are two fatal flaws:

1. After her father's death, Gwen went to London (not France) to stay with her aunt and uncle, probably for no more than a few weeks. And she only left when Peter couldn't bring himself to ask her to stay. Why would she then randomly stop by to boff Osborn if all she wanted to do at that point was get away from her troubles in New York by flying overseas to live with her aunt and uncle?

2. Sins Past says that Gwen "just got back" from Europe right before Harry Osborn overdosed in ASM # 119-121 (since JMS says that her trip took place during the reprint story in ASM # 116-118), despite the fact that Gwen is present in virtually every Spider-Man story that occurred after her return from London in ASM # 98 until her death in ASM # 121 (including all-new scenes that were added to the "reprinted" story in ASM # 116-119, scenes which strengthened her relationship with Peter).

Gleen Greenberg wrote:  Howard Mackie wrote: I recently found my notes from the original meeting at which what went on to be called the CLONE SAGA was developed. The original story--as presented by the WRITERS-- was to last three months spread over the 4 existing titles. It was to have begun and end in 12 ISSUES! Howard, According to your notes, how was the clone storyline originally supposed to end? Was Ben Reilly going to take over the Peter Parker identity permanently, and then we would have continued on with a single, carefree Spider-Man? Or would it have ended with Ben out of the picture for good and the married Peter restored as the original guy and back in the suit?

Based on Howard's response to this question, even if plans hadn't changed upfront, the Clone Saga wouldn't have ended in 12 issues since the greatest controversy of the story (married Peter not being the real one) would still have been a part of it.  So chances are fandom would still be making the same mistake we make now - forgetting that the conclusion to "The Greatest Responsibility" (Spec #229) WAS the end of the Clone Saga before the collective fan shitfit that caused the reversal a year later.

(And Howard, any chance you have legible handwriting, a scanner and a willingness to share?  Seeing "what might have been" is always fun.)

Greg Kirkman wrote: "Why would she then randomly stop by to boff Osborn if all she wanted to do at that point was get away from her troubles in New York by flying overseas to live with her aunt and uncle?"

I believe it's obvious that Osborn was only able to seduce her with a "subtle boost from Immortus' machines."

Seriously, though, JMS said in an interview in Marvel Spotlight: Spider-Man that "the main distinction that you always bear in mind in that Spider-Man is an icon. He's Marvel's flagship character, the one guy you see on all the staionary.  That means you have to be careful not to break him, to treat him as a trust.  You can fiddle with the guest and supporting characters, but Peter himself has to be held inviolate." The idea that a character is an island, divorced from the characters that surround him, is an odd one.  "Revealing" that Betty Cooper has slept with Mr. Lodge, had two children by him and intends to trap Archie into marraige, knowing America's Favorite Red-Headed Teenager will support her and her kids due to his fundamental decency and all-forgiving love of her alters the basic experience of reading an Archie comic.  Whether or not Ol' Arch himself is aware of fallible yet sly Betty's plans, the reader cannot look at Archie the same way, knowing that he is a cuckolded dupe and that this is now the sort of person with whom he would willingly spend the rest of his life.  The character of Archie is altered in the process, to say nothing of the collateral damage done to the stories that rely upon Betty's own basic decency.  We all make mistakes, it's true.  JMS and Marvel ought to underscore that truth by admitting that "Sins Past" is one of their's.

That is one of my "red flag" storylines.  "Magic Baby Syndrome."

The creators need to bring a pregnancy storyline they've introduced into the mix to an end.  But after the baby is born, what next?  No one wants to see the storyline proceed at the glacial pace at which a baby actually ages, (even longer if you're doing a "time suspension" serial like most comics.) The answer is inevitably "Magic Baby Syndrome."  Biology is creepy, icky, and full of unpleasant surprises, so the birth of a child in an adventure storyline almost always means that the child will be a menace or something to be otherwise feared.  Since CGI floating fetuses shooting death rays from their bulbous, oversized heads are expensive on a weekly basis (or untenable over the course of a comic storyline), it's best to just cut to the chase, age the punk kid to adolescence (when kids turn against their parents anyway) and get right to the fightin', punchin', and scratchin'. These storylines almost always suck. "Angel" dealt with theirs about as well as they could (both of them.)  "V: The Series" built their central storyline on the idea. "Birds of Prey" and "ST:TNG" kept theirs to single episodes, but they were not good episodes. The Magic Stacy kids sound as if they're supposed to be a flat-out parody of similar storylines that take place on TV soaps, where children always age faster in Europe and come back as scheming menaces, bent on wreaking havoc.  An entire storyline based on a joke about TV soap operas? Really?  This is the best the House of Increasingly Vague Concepts can do anymore?

FF 245 and Action Comics 502 are about the best treatments of the "Magic Baby" idea I've seen, but really, by and large, it's been done, overdone, done some more, done to death, and they're still doing it.  Just stop.