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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36087
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 1
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Sorry, bud. I know you're my brother from another mother, but on this we'll just have to disagree!
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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<<<I didn't buy that the serum that gave him his powers and eventually drove him made also gave him an incredible healing ability that allowed him to survive a Goblin Glider to the chest.>>>
Phooey on you, Matt Reed!!!!
+++++++++
There, there, Glenn...we all know that you did what you had to do under difficult circumstances. Since you weren't keen on bringing Osborn back to begin with, but set aside those feelings in order to write the story like a professional, that makes you okay in my book.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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<<<I subscribe to CBG, and they talk with JMS about his Spider-Man work. He freely admits that every story he wrote was not a hit, and he explains what his intentions were with some of the storylines.>>>
Okay, I'll bite--what in the world was his intention with SINS PAST?
++++++++++
From what I've read, he wanted to "throw the biggest rock" at Spider-Man that he could find. Seriously. Because Spider-Man needs big, emotional challenges.
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Tony Meusel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 56
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 4
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Easiest way to explain.
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Bill Catellier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3225
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 5
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Skrulls as the root of all M*****'s and Spidey's problems wouldn't be bad if it was a planned idea and not simply an escape now that they've painted themselves in a corner with most of these stories. Seeing as how they wiped out most of them in their Annihilation even hard to buy them as Earth's biggest threat. I'll simply go with Quesada being an idiot.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 6
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Yeah, Gwen handled the situation responsibly. She boffed the father of her boyfriend's best friend, hid the resulting pregnancy from everyone around her, abandoned her bastard kids overseas, and expected Peter to still love her and help her raise the kids after telling him the truth, but ended up getting killed before she could tell him.
Very responsible. Heroic, even.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 21 September 2007 at 8:20pm
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Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 7
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Same topic, different super-hero: I'm sort of hoping when the smoke from The Final Crisis clears Superman and Lois Lane will no longer be married.
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Glenn Greenberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 8
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I read SINS PAST very carefully when it came out. In no way did Gwen come across to me as taking ownership of her mistake, taking responsibility, and handling it. And in no way did any of this come through as the driving point of the story.
Gwen came off as a duplicitous, unfaithful, shallow, airheaded dope who cheated on her boyfriend by hitting the sheets with his best friend's father. And let's not forget that Harry was one of Gwen's closest friends too, so it wasn't just Peter that she betrayed.
She then confronted Norman, whom she already knew was, at the very least, unstable and prone to frightening temper tantrums, and actually threatened him (I did say she was written as a DOPE, right?). And as Greg pointed out, she was expecting to saddle poor, naive, totally-in-the-dark Peter with the responsibility of supporting her and her two bastard kids because he loved her and would do anything for her. Nice--totally taking Peter for granted after she pissed all over him.
Does this seem like any version of Gwen that we'd seen up until then? When readers took JMS to task for this, he angrily fired back that they had "issues."
I dunno. He decides, from out of nowhere, to take a sweet, uncorrupted, and fondly remembered character like Gwen Stacy and cheapen her, tarnish her (and doesn't even do it in a way that works with the original stories), and then accuses the readers of having "issues" when they don't embrace it with open arms.
He used that "Madonna/Whore complex" argument before, when he was attacking those who criticized his story. It was a bullshit argument then, and it's a bullshit argument now. But I've got to hand it to him--he's sticking to his guns!
Edited by Glenn Greenberg on 21 September 2007 at 9:20pm
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Brian Hunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5178
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 9
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I actually liked JMS's run up until Sins Past. That big blunder tarnished the whole run for me. He can own that.
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 10
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Sins Past makes no sense because how the hell did her kids grow into adulthood so fast? And when the hell did they resurect the original Green Goblin? Didn't he die? I guess the answer to all this is "because the story demanded it"?
Furthermore, Peter Parker is hardly a poor schmoe. He has a high IQ level. Is a professional photographer and let's face it, he has a "killer bod". Guys like that don't live with their auntie past high school. I don't see how scoring a model is beyond him. Models aren't all the unatainable heroin junkie crackheads on speed we all dream of. Some are quite accessible. And last of all why do people relate more to a loser who lives with his aunt despite all that?
God, I hate everyone!
Edited by Martin Redmond on 21 September 2007 at 10:11pm
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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SINS PAST> Rodin's Thinker
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | 12
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<<Does this seem like any version of Gwen that we'd seen up until then? When readers took JMS to task for this, he angrily fired back that they had "issues.">>
I remember that. He was posting in the Marvel comics group on usenet when these issues came out. Trying to turn it on the people who dislked it because we wanted Gwen to be up on a pedestal, pristine and perfect.
He claimed that he was making her more human and relatable and, make no mistake, there were people who agreec with him. The people who disliked it hated it, but there were a bunch who liked it. Me, I saw the same bullshit psychobabble rationalizations that I read for 3 years while Morrison destroyed Cyclops' character.
There were 2 sets of SINS PAST detractors. The people who hated what was done to Gwen's character and the people who thought there was no way to believably fit the pregnancy into the original timeline.
JMS had answers for both. Then it came down to whether you bought his answers. I didn't.
Glenn, I thought I remembered seeing you say you dropped the Spider-Man books over this story. Am I misremembering?
Someone had mentioned ignoring it. While I definitely would prefer that it be retconned, I do think that SINS PAST is a story where that would be easier to do than some others. Gwen has been dead for over 30 years and they can just never use the twins again. It's harder to just ignore what's been done to other characters when you see them on a monthly basis. Again, certainly not my preference.
I did read awhile back that JMS' original pitch was that Peter be the father of the twins. How it evolved from that to Norman is beyond me.
Edited by Larry Morris on 21 September 2007 at 10:08pm
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