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Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 1
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An interesting sideline is that, in the novelization for 1979's Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the writer appended a message from James T. Kirk -- written from the future -- were Kirk disclaimed any sexual relationship with Mr. Spock. He pointed out, among other things, the disadvantage of pursuing a physical relationship with someone who only comes into sexual heat every 7 years.
Apparently this was in response to the contention by some gay interest groups that the Kirk/Spock relationship was one of the greatest love stories of all time.
Now, I don't see Kirk/Spock in that way, but some of the red shirts seemed to me to give each other rather lingering looks.
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Peter Svensson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1470
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 2
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Greg, the issue is that in real life people who on the surface appear to be firmly heterosexual end up being homosexuals in denial. It happens. It's just that Whedon didn't pull it off well.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 3
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Since Xander and Willow were both firmly established as heterosexuals, I don't think it would have worked with Xander any more than it did with Willow. The bottom line is that it would have been a major u-turn no matter how it was done, one that smacked of a writer forcing the characters to act out-of-character.
Perhaps Whedon should have introduced a brand-new character who was gay (like Tara), instead of forcing one of the regulars into a mold that didn't fit what had gone before.
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SER: I agree. The reason I mentioned Xander is that he would have made more sense for such a revelation. Willow definitely didn't. And I think it did more harm than good -- presenting her sexuality has some sort of light switch. For instance, an episode in the final season had Willow interested in a guy (based on a spell) and the reaction was "you're a lesbian," as if she'd never been interested -- genuinely interested, as in making out with and such -- in a man.
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Bill Dowling Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2177
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 4
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Greg, the issue is that in real life people who on the surface appear
to be firmly heterosexual end up being homosexuals in denial. It
happens. It's just that Whedon didn't pull it off well. ******************************** But they appear that way because we don't have the insight into their feelings that we get from fiction. We saw Willow's longing looks at Xander, we saw Willow's heartache when things were going wrong with Oz.
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David Ferguson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 6782
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 5
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Its a similar story with Dr Weaver in ER.
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Aleksei Green Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 640
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 6
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Mr. Byrne mentioned that transsexual lesbians were 'castrated heterosexuals'. I think there should be more trans characters in comics. Coagula was killed off and retconned out of continuity. I was hoping that maybe she would be made into an amazon on paradise island someday. A well written trans character would be most welcome in comics. The general public seems to only have the Jerry Springer idea of transsexual people.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133563
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:24am | IP Logged | 7
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Thing is, how is a transgender character to be protrayed in a "regular" comic? (Setting aside the fact that, like many psychologists, I don't accept the whole idea of "transgender".) A Gay character can have a same-sex partner, a la Maggie Sawyer, and that's a quick and easy shorthand even without showing them in the sack. But transgender would quickly become what the character is about, as it is something that would have to be constantly referenced. Unless we went for a cliche, like a truck-driver in a dress -- but even then, he could just be a cross-dresser.If there was a transgender character who basically had to announce this fact every time she/he appeared, it would become like the 90s joke about vocal homosexuals, "When did the love that dare not speak its name become the love that won't shut up?"
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Aleksei Green Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 640
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 8
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Rachel Pollack created a great out trans character in coagula. She used the storyline to address gender issues. In my view that character was a great addition to the doom patrol mythos. The character was realistically portrayed and could have been like one's neighbour next door.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133563
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 9
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How did you know the character was transgender?
(And, since I'm getting an odd vibe from some of these posts -- you all know that Pollack is a transgender, right?)
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14190
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 10
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My mother always told me, "You learn something new every day of your life."
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Aaron Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 10461
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 11
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She used the storyline to address gender issues.
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That's fine, but what about future storylines? The character being transgendered isn't something that can be so easily made known to new readers without clumsily inserted reminders. If a character appears in a serialized story, occassionally things must be shown or mentioned to let new readers have the information that is vital to the characters.
A long time reader of Spider-Man, for example, would know that Peter Parker is a photographer, but a new reader will only know this through reading scenes in which Peter takes pictures, or mentions it. Inserting a photography scene is easy. Inserting events or conversations in which the audience is reminded of the character being transgendered isn't so easy.
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Aleksei Green Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 640
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Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 12
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Well Rachel made it clear in the beginning that Coagula aka Kate Godwin was a trans woman. Coagula received her powers after having sex with Rebis. Those Doom Patrol issues were not only inovative in dealing with gender issues, but dealt with many social 'taboos'. Kind of like Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN in making the reader really think after finishing the issue.
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