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David Ferguson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 6782
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 1
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There was an Oz and Willow love story too. I think.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133561
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 2
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Whatever the reason for Willow to switch teams, it was poorly portrayed. You don't wander thru 20 years of life having various infatuations and romances with the opposite sex and suddenly bump into the "right" person of the same sex. That's as absurd -- and on some levels as offensive -- as suggesting that a Lesbian just hasn't met the right guy. Homosexuals I know, at least, knew they were Gay from around the same age I knew I was Straight. It's not a "discovery". For many, because of the fuct up society in which we live, it is a struggle, but that's a whole 'nother thing.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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Agreed. Willow's sudden change in orientation felt really wrong to me. It seemed like a totally arbitrary and unrealistic thing to do. Now, if she'd been revealed as a bisexual, that might have worked. But the way it was done smacks of a writer using the characters to serve his own ends.
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Peter Svensson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1470
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 4
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From what I heard, Whedon's intention was to have Willow turn out bisexual, but the fall out from Kennedy's death was such that having her next romantic interest be male didn't seem appropriate.
And sexuality is never as cut and dry as people suspect. Many are the gay youth who go through the motions of being attracted to the opposite sex because that's what's expected of them, not because of any attraction, but because they don't really consider it an option. I didn't fully realize I was gay until college.
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Craig Rogers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2007 Location: United States Posts: 92
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 5
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It is frustrating how many non-gay people simply don't understand what it means to be gay. They get so hung up on the 'sex'. Without trying to sound too hippy, it's not about sex. It's about love. I, as a gay man, fell in love with another man.
I want to have sex with the man I love, because I love him. If it's just about the physical act, hell, I'd have sex with a woman if it were just about the act. That doesn't make me straight.
Hell, after 8+ years of "marriage", I hardly ever have sex at all anymore! LOL!
Edited by Craig Rogers on 13 September 2007 at 2:13pm
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David Ferguson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 6782
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 6
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You generally know in your teens.
Some people don't accept until later though.
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Brendan Howard Byrne Robotics Member
FAQ Master Supreme
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4943
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 7
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That was my problem with the Kevin Kline movie In & Out, too.
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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Many are the gay youth who go through the motions of being attracted to the opposite sex because that's what's expected of them, not because of any attraction, but because they don't really consider it an option. I didn't fully realize I was gay until college. 88888
How did you explain the occasions a woman got you hard? Not asking to be offensive, genuinely curious.
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Peter Svensson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1470
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 9
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They didn't. I dated a girl, because I liked her as a friend and because that's what you're supposed to do, right? But I wasn't sexually attracted to her. I mistook the feelings of friendship for actual love. I wasn't in a position where I could fall in love with a man. I had a crush on a good friend of mine, but likewise told myself that it was just friendship, not erotic desire.
In retrospect, my teenage years were quite confusing emotionally.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133561
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 10
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And sexuality is never as cut and dry as people suspect. Many are the gay youth who go through the motions of being attracted to the opposite sex because that's what's expected of them, not because of any attraction, but because they don't really consider it an option. I didn't fully realize I was gay until college. ••• That's the societal struggle I mentioned. But Willow did not and could not experience this. She is fictional. What she feels is what the writers tell her to feel -- and those feelings, as presented to the viewers, are real and true. Thus, her attraction to Xander, her affair with Oz. This was not someone stuggling to come to terms with her own sexuality -- this was someone who was Straight until the writers decided she was Gay. Which is forcing the character to follow the storyline, instead of letting the storyline flow from the character. Clumsy, in a show that was otherwise so well crafted.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 11
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Whatever the reason for Willow to switch teams, it was poorly portrayed. You don't wander thru 20 years of life having various infatuations and romances with the opposite sex and suddenly bump into the "right" person of the same sex. That's as absurd -- and on some levels as offensive -- as suggesting that a Lesbian just hasn't met the right guy. Homosexuals I know, at least, knew they were Gay from around the same age I knew I was Straight. It's not a "discovery". For many, because of the fuct up society in which we live, it is a struggle, but that's a whole 'nother thing.
*****
SER: I agree. It also went against what had been depicted regarding Willow's prevoius relationship with Oz and her love for Xander. A revelation that Xander was gay would have made sense because he had never been in a real relationship until Anya in the 4th season (when the revelation would have occurred anyway). Xander's infatuation with Buffy and his dalliance with Cordelia fit with what a lot of gay men I know went through while struggling with their sexuality. They often choose "wrong" women so if the relationship fails or doesn't work, it's for a reason other than their actual sexuality. Xander would subconsciously know that Buffy is way out of his league and that Cordelia is as well and is all wrong for him to boot. This would explain his failure to notice Willow's heart on her sleeve -- that would be too dangerous, as it would have potential to be something "real."
Of course, male homosexuals on television is probably the true final frontier and not the guys from Queer Eye but men who otherwise fit the "masculine" stereotype but who like men -- a gay James Bond or Jim Kirk (and no, I'm not saying that someone should reveal that either of those guys are gay).
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 13 September 2007 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 12
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Since Xander and Willow were both firmly established as heterosexuals, I don't think it would have worked with Xander any more than it did with Willow. The bottom line is that it would have been a major u-turn no matter how it was done, one that smacked of a writer forcing the characters to act out-of-character.
Perhaps Whedon should have introduced a brand-new character who was gay (like Tara), instead of forcing one of the regulars into a mold that didn't fit what had gone before.
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