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Topic: "Why did you have us dress like superheroes?" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Paul Kimball
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Joined: 21 September 2006
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 2:09am | IP Logged | 1  

Roque, I wish you luck tomorrow. At least you didn't say you like Bendis's
writing.
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Roque Martinez
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Joined: 06 May 2007
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 2:23am | IP Logged | 2  

I don't know, Paul. I suppose you're saying that tomorrow I might be banned. But I have no reason to believe so. So far I've seen that JB and the mods here only ban those who are troublemakers, and who are here only to stir the pot. They are great managing this forum in a fair and just way. Maybe I was a little sarcastic, but I believe the notion we are being 'programmed' to like fun stories did deserve it.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 4:25am | IP Logged | 3  

All these years I was thinking the point of reading superhero comic books (or any comic books) was for fun, to be entertained. Just like movies, or reading a book, or any other form of entertainment. But now I realize it's just because I've been programmed and all that matters is what others believe is respecting the characters.

•••

The last resort of those with an indefensible position is to strike an "either/or" stance. That one has already been demolished in this thread.

Try again.

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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 4  

Morrison in the X-Men:

1. introduces a new mutation from day one without explanation.

2. banishes costumes and outright mocks them.

3. has Cyclops mercy killing someone (the same Cyclops who has time and again proclaimed that when there's life there's hope).

4. writes Cyclops and Jean as having marital problems that didn't exist before just because it fitted his plans (and ego), forsakening decades long stories involving those two.

5. kills Magneto and Jean in the same issue.

6. introduces sex related and drug related storylines in the X-Men, involving teenagers.

7. has Cyclops drinking and getting drank.

8. has Cyclops cheat on his wife with a mortal enemy whom he apparently trusts enough to take her advice on his marital problems.

9. Jean tortures Emma.

10. Xavier has a twin sister whom he murders while in the womb (!!!!!!).

11. has Beast proclaim without any reason he is gay!

12. has the X-Men reveal their link to the School for Gifted Youngsters.

13. has Cyclops kiss Emma over Jean's grave!

14. has Wolverine mercy killing Jean (mercy killing seems to be a theme)!

All those at the top of my head. If those are good X-Men stories than I come from Mars.

Stories that are true to the characters and are lazily written and poor will get as much (if not more) complaints from this reader.

I want good, well written and true to the character stories. Surely, it isn't so hard, is it?

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Adam Gomes
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Joined: 25 June 2007
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 5  

"Why is it every time someone defends Grant Morrison they bring up ALL-STAR SUPERMAN? Is that the crucifix against criticism of a guy who can barely write about Wolverine's hair with a straight face, or am I missing something?"

++++

Considering that only two people (myself included) have even mentioned ALL-STAR SUPERMAN in this thread, I assume you're referring to me or Robert Last.  You'll notice, if you re-read those two posts, that it was mentioned not as a defense of Grant Morrison, but in stating a personal opinion about how enjoyable that series has been.  In contrast to his work on X-Men, which I read, but found to be lackluster and a bit of an obvious attempt to make the book "edgier", All-Star Superman is something that many who decry how comics are written today probably would enjoy.  I compared it to Frank Miller's All-Star Batman, which is surprising in how mocking and disrespectful it tries to be.  Yet, Frank has done some excellent superhero comics in the past. 

Frank Miller and Grant Morrison almost seem to be reflections of each other nowadays.  One now mocks the concepts and conceits he built his reputation on, while the other seems to now be embracing concepts and stories that he once considered goofy. 

You don't have to go back to ANIMAL MAN to see Morrison writing straight superhero comics.  Check out JLA and his fun on the Flash.


Edited by Adam Gomes on 12 July 2007 at 6:45am
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James Hanson
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Joined: 14 February 2006
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 6  

Why is it every time someone defends Grant Morrison they bring up
ALL-
STAR SUPERMAN?


Probably because they like All Star Superman.

It sounds like someone who'd rather be able to quote some pretty
poetry
than to actually get excited that the mystery super-villain MIGHT be "fill
in
the blank".


Sounds like you're upset that people are enjoying something you don't.

Here's the thing, Morrison has a schtick, and he has run with it for a
couple decades.


Good thing you're here to see through the bullsh!t.

I wish people would stop telling me that his ALL-STAR SUPERMAN is the
balls because it's "retro".


I'll never, ever tell you anything is "balls".



Edited by James Hanson on 12 July 2007 at 7:07am
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Bruce Buchanan
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 7  

There is a clear blueprint for success with that team - just check out the JB/Chris Claremont run for how to do it right.

That blueprint had been imitated and run into the ground for years upon years by the time Morrison took over X-Men. Not just in X-Men, either -- in any number of other superhero comics with young adult protagonists. And I flipped through enough tedious X-Men titles in the 90s to agree with Morrison that something drastic needed to be done.

And if tweaking genre conventions is inherently bad, well, I guess Stan and Jack never should've had Reed, Johnny, Ben and Sue bickering with each other. They should've just been smiling cardboard personalities like the early 60s JLA.

*****************

That's a good question, but here's the difference as I see it:

Stan and Jack created the Fantastic Four and established the "ground rules" for how those characters should be treated. Had Morrison created a new superhero team and done the same things he did in X-Men, I wouldn't have any problem with it at all. (I probably wouldn't have read it, but it wouldn't bother me.)

However, the X-Men were an established set of characters. The ground rules were already in place when Morrison started writing the book. That's a big difference to me.

I'd also disagree with the notion that the traditional X-Men formula had been "run into the ground" by the mid-1990s. That's like saying the concept of "With great power comes great responsibility" is played out in Spider-Man. The concepts themselves are timeless - it's the execution that can vary.

Or if superhero stories start to feel repetitive, perhaps that's a sign that it's time for the reader to move along to something new, rather than a sign that the comics themselves need to change.

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Bruce Buchanan
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 8  

As for Grant Morrison, there's no shame in saying the guy has done some good work on traditional superhero books. He is a good writer and has written plenty of stories that I like. However, his run on X-Men isn't on that list.

Adam's comparison to Frank Miller is a good one. I love Miller's work on Daredevil back in the '80s, but that doesn't stop me from loathing what he's doing now on All-Star Batman.

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Ron Farrell
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:49am | IP Logged | 9  

Even favorite authors don't score every time with me. I eventually dropped Morrison's X-MEN and DOOM PATROL. I went no further with 7 SOLDIERS than the first issue. However, I loved or am loving JLA, 52, ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, and BATMAN.

And there have been very different tones among Morrison's work, even the works appearring concurrently.

He's not perfect, but he is good.

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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
It sounds like someone who'd rather be able to quote some pretty
poetry than to actually get excited that the mystery super-villain MIGHT be "fill
in the blank".


Sounds like you're upset that people are enjoying something you don't.

Doesn't particularly read like that to me; just reads like a criticism of the work.

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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133740
Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:56am | IP Logged | 11  

As we have seen, there are certain ideas that get into the brains of some people, fans and retailers for instance, and once there it seems nothing short of a lobotomy will dislodge them. This is why, for instance, twenty years after the fact, some people still bitch about my run on Superman. Thirty years after the fact, some cannot let go of the death of Phoenix. And even tho it has not been remotely true for a quarter century, you will not have to look far to find someone who will tell you I don't draw backgrounds.

It's not always negative, mind you. There are some writers and artist (and I have been among these, too) who pick up a positive endorsement from the masses, and it seems nothing will ever change it. Sometimes we will see the endorsement being modified, so that it has a few qualifiers (the way Shooter used to say of one writer that he was probably the best working in comics -- just not a very good comicbook writer) but often, once a mantra is in place, nothing can shake it. We have, for instance, seen occasions where a writer will come right out and say in so many words that he doesn't like superheroes, yet the fans will still cough up their memorized lines about how much love for the genre shines thru in his work.

I am often reminded of a line in the old John Astin TV movie, EVIL ROY SLADE. "I never changed my mind before. Does it hurt?"

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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133740
Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 12  

"Why is it every time someone defends Grant Morrison they bring up ALL-STAR SUPERMAN? Is that the crucifix against criticism of a guy who can barely write about Wolverine's hair with a straight face, or am I missing something?"

+++

Considering that only two people (myself included) have even mentioned ALL-STAR SUPERMAN in this thread…

•••

And he couldn't possibly be referring to a general tone encountered elsewhere.

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