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Topic: "Why did you have us dress like superheroes?" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 1  

The Thing isn't universally adored.  And people have shown fear with the Torch as well.

Edited by Paulo Pereira on 11 July 2007 at 10:49am
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Nathan Greno
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 2  








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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 3  

Back to the subject at hand, I never ever understood the whole >mutant menace" thing. Yes I understand its allegorical purpose, but in the context of the MU it makes no damn sense. In a world where Thor, Captain America, Spiderman, and other heroes are beloved, why would the average person have a problme with people born with powers and love those who got them by accident?

•••

First you must transport yourself to the time when the X-Men were created. Hard as it is to believe, here in the Age of Enlightenment that is the 21st Century, people used to be so ignorant as to fear that a White woman might pop out a Black baby if there was so much as one drop of Black blood in her background, or her husband's. (There was even an Urban Legend when I was in College that this had happened to Doris Day!)

Mutants are the Marvel Universe version of this fear, only "over there" the fear is justified. Two "normal" parents can, indeed, produce a mutant. This was the basis of Senator Kelly's campaign for President, remember, in "Days of Future Past". His slogan was "It's 1984! Do you know WHAT your children are?"

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Bruce Buchanan
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 11:21am | IP Logged | 4  

the Mutant "scare" was always stupid...

The Thing and the Human Torch are loved by the masses but the Angel is so horrifying that people run in panic?

With our culture today Mutants could sell their sperm and eggs for MILLIONS and people would line up around the block to get it... With plastic surgery and celebrity worship people BORN with superpowers would be treated like GODS...

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I completely disagree. The Fantastic Four are popular (perhaps not universally loved, but certainly popular) because they are high-profile protectors of the world. They are A-list celebrities by design - they have public identities and a public address. People feel as though they know the Fantastic Four.

Mutants, on the other hand, could be anywhere. The funny looking kid next door might be a walking weapon of mass destruction. It's the unknown that's frightening.

Besides, prejudice against mutants has been a core concept of the X-Men since the early days. They defend humanity because they are superheroes, but the public at large will never trust or like them. It's just part of the package.

 

 

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Mike Murray
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 5  

"Grant Morrison seems to be one of these writers who put a high priority on "fun" and "telling good stories" instead of actually RESPECTING the characters and their creators' original vision.  It's indicative of a real sickness at the heart of today's comic books that someone like that would be hired to write one of the Lee/Kirby creations."

Is this one of those posts that suffers without a smiley face at the end?

***************************************************

That was my post, and I wasn't smiling when I wrote it, so I don't really know what's being asked here. 

In my opinion, Morrison has no business writing these characters if he doesn't place a high priority on respecting them.  I realize that we've been programmed to think of "fun" as an inherently good thing, but too much "fun", and a drive to "tell a good story" at the cost of respecting the characters is not good, it's disgusting.  It also leads to familiarity on the part of the creator and the reader and that leads to contempt - like the use of cutesy little nicknames, to recall an earlier thread topic that was similar to this one.  For the readers of these modern comic books to be pointing and laughing their way through the stories is NOT a good thing.  Not at the cost of the characters' dignity - that's too high a price to pay.
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Eric Lund
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 6  

the pointing and laughing is why I hate the Giffen and DeMattis(sp) JLA bwah ha ha haaa stuff so much. They essentially piss on things from that direction and I find it much more offensive than I do the stuff that the deconstructionists do... O'Neil and Adams on Batman made him grim and gritty again from the camp so I understand that approach to a point...although not to the extremes it has been taken.. Realism which is what Stan Lee imbued on the characters makes them "seem" more alive and touchable..tangible but it goes too far in the wrong hands...

What Giffen/DeMattis(sp) did was out and out ridicule the entire concept and reading the Defenders they did was just horrible... they pissed on pretty much everything that superheroes are about....
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Adam Gomes
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | 7  

I'm having a hard time understanding this thread.  It's like the posts are being made on Bizarro world.

Fun is bad?  Telling good stories is bad?

Morrison's done some great epic superhero stuff.  There are some beautiful "done-in-one" stories in his All-Star Superman series.  Compare that series to Frank Miller's All-Star Batman, which is so grim n' gritty, it almost reads as satire (which would be just as disrespectful, no?).

I loved the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League for the same reason I loved She-Hulk.  It put superheroes that were normally stoic and serious up to that point in a sitcom (in She-Hulk's case, some of that humor was like reading a comic done by Monty Python.  Awesome stuff.)
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Mike Murray
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 8  

It's what turned me off from modern comic books, almost entirely.  I remember when the kid working behind the counter in a comic book shop recommended a 10-cent Fantastic Four book to me.  Since the store had a sign claiming that they were giving the proceeds from the sale of this book to charity, I bought it even though it was by Mark Waid, who I'm no fan of.  Well, I threw that book in the trash before I even finished it... there were references to urination and jokes about The Thing's penis, it was more like a Kevin Smith movie than a FF comic book!  I won't even go into that shop anymore.  Talk about hatred and contempt for the source material... one day there will be an accounting for the crimes committed against the Marvel Legacy in the name of "fun", and I hope to God I'm alive to see it.

Edited by Mike Murray on 11 July 2007 at 12:12pm
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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 9  

SER: Playing down the "superhero aspects" of a superhero book is a mistake, plain and simple. It's like the new CEO of McDonald's saying that "lord knows there are enough fast-food restaurants out there already, dominating the market to the exclusion of every other" restaurant, so he then tries to turn McDonald's into Applebee's.

This analogy only works if you think that Marvel should be publishing the equivalent of fast food. I always thought that comics, of whatever type, were supposed to be better, more creative, than that.

If reinvigorating a franchise means seriously bending genre rules, so be it.

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Bruce Buchanan
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 10  

If reinvigorating a franchise means seriously bending genre rules, so be it.

**************

But I don't think the X-Men needed reinvigorating. There is a clear blueprint for success with that team - just check out the JB/Chris Claremont run for how to do it right.

On a more general scale, I don't think superhero comics are "broken" and in need of repair. The genre itself works fine - just tell good stories within that genre.

And for anyone who says the traditional conventions of comic books limit creativity and need bending, I offer this:

William Shakespeare worked under constraints much more limiting than any comic creator ever has. His plays were written in iambic pentameter. All his comedies ended in a wedding and his tragedies invariably end in death. And he couldn't even use women in his stage productions - young boys had to play the female roles.

Those conventions didn't stop Shakespeare from being creative and telling good stories, did they? There's nothing inherently wrong with the superhero comics genre. But like any genre, it requires skillful storytellers to do it right.



Edited by Bruce Buchanan on 11 July 2007 at 12:20pm
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Mike Murray
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 11  

Those restrictions didn't stop Shakespeare from being creative and telling good stories, did they?

***********************************************
Good point Bruce.  Unfortunately the perverts and degenerates who are pissing on the house the Stan, Jack and Steve built don't have the skill or decency to work under the proper restrictions and limitations that (should) exist when working with children's characters.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 12  

"the pointing and laughing is why I hate the Giffen and DeMattis(sp) JLA bwah ha ha haaa stuff so much. They essentially piss on things from that direction and I find it much more offensive than I do the stuff that the deconstructionists do... "

I've seen that view many times, but I've never really been persuaded by it. Giffen and DeMatteis did play up the humor and levity in the book, but it was a little more like MASH in that while it might joke around with the characters, it never ridiculed the CONCEPT of superheroes. It just showed them as fallible, and since most of them were second, third or fourth tier characters, it showed them struggling to live up to the ideal of Superman, bBatman and Wonder Woman and sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing.

Giffen and DeMatteis' characters  probably wouldn't ask "why are we wearing superhero costumes" . They might ask "why am I fighting bad guys wearing a thong?"

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