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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 1
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I had typed out a fairly lengthy reply to this, thinking that a few details were left out. However, I lost it.
Probably for the best, we're not going to change each other's minds. Since I think he is ruined, just not necessarily when you do, I'll pass on debating this.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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Larry reconsider, I look forward to your replies.
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Mark Matthewman
Byrne Robotics Member
Boring Contrarian
Joined: 12 January 2007
Posts: 329
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 3
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Oh and can someone give me a link to moore saying he thinks Sue wants to fuck johhny? Becasue thats just wrong.
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Monte Gruhlke
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Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3299
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 4
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I can do without that link. :-)
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Jason Powell
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 429
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 5
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"Probably for the best, we're not going to change each other's minds. "
Not necessarily true, presuming you were talking to me. But since the thread
is about Grant Morrison, not 20-year-old continuity, I can understand you
wanting to take the pass. I realize this thread has drifted...
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 6
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<<Not necessarily true, presuming you were talking to me. But since the thread
is about Grant Morrison, not 20-year-old continuity, I can understand you
wanting to take the pass. I realize this thread has drifted...>>
I shouldn't have spoken for you since I don't know you nearly as well as I do myself. I probably should have said that you won't be changing my mind.
I've read all the issues involved, multiple times. Not in a few years, but multiple times. Hadn't read them in awhile before I got on the net and saw Scott accused of things I didn't think happened. Not to the degree that they were described.
I guess it could be argued that it relates to Grant Morrison's X Men in the sense of whether this period justifies what he did with Cyclops' character.
Thank you for the compliment, Victor.
It was Grant Morrison who made the FF comments, not Moore. I just did a quick google search. Grant Morrison Fantastic Four Sue fuck Johnny. I got a link to an interview as the first match.
It's taken out of context. It's Morrison talking about the freudian dynamics that exist within the FF. What I just looked at now was not what I read back in, I think, 1999 or 2000. That was a longer interview, but it had the same part about Sue and Johnny. Namor is also involved. All I can tell you is I found it disturbing.
Everyone else can make up their own mind.
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Stan Lomisceau
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Joined: 12 October 2006
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 7
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these are disgusting things to be thinking and this man should never be
going near any of the all ages comics! wow it is gross! they let these
men say whatever they want to now and that is not right what happened
to the days when there was respect for the comics? that is my rule for
me. r e s p e c t.
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Jason Powell
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 429
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 8
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"I've read all the issues involved, multiple times. Not in a few years, but
multiple times. Hadn't read them in awhile before I got on the net and
saw Scott accused of things I didn't think happened. Not to the degree
that they were described."
I may have overstated the case by calling Cyclops "ruined," but what I've
never seen adequately explained is just why he seems like such a jerk
during this period. When Hugh Jackman calls James Marsden a "dick" in
the first X-Men movie I think it really resonated with a lot of comic book
fans, because it's the perfect way to describe him circa X-Men 200. I've
debated this on the net before and what no one has ever adequately
explained to me is why he doesn't just call his damn wife in X-Men 200,
when *every other member of the team does*!
I didn't used to think of Cyclops as a dick myself. (I remember being
really surprised when I wore an X-Men shirt to school one day and a guy
at lunch pointed at Cyclops and very vehemently shouted, "I HATE that
guy!")
I still really like pre-XMen 200 Cyclops, because I realize that that era was
an aberration in terms of the way the character was written -- although it
still was never decently corrected afterward. The best solution has been
to just ignore it, really.
The question still nags at me: Why didn't Cyclops call Madeline from
Paris? I just can't see a way of justifying that.
"It's Morrison talking about the freudian dynamics that exist within the
FF."
I just googled that interview, and wow, talk about some ropy logic. He
notes that there's a family dynamic to the FF: Reed and Sue are the
parents, Johnny and Ben are the kids. But since the mom and one of the
kids are, in literal story terms, brother and sister, that means there's "an
incest thing going on." Errr, what?
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Troy Nunis
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | 9
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i always took THAT particular interview as Morrison just trying to find something shocking to say in an interview to get Buzz going about his FF mini series, and beyond that - it's alot of hogwash to fill up space. There are enough horrible things in his actual WORK to pick over without even getting into his WWE-Style Hype-Mentality in Interviews.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6547
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| Posted: 25 July 2007 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 10
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I've enjoyed reading this thread to catch up on a lot of X-Men details I missed over the years. I hate what has happened to my favorite comic book.
Jason: "The question still nags at me: Why didn't Cyclops call Madeline from
Paris? I just can't see a way of justifying that."
I think that is a great question and one of the larger wounds cut into this once noble character. However, I was already dismayed and disinterested in the writing by that time because the question that still nags me is why did Cyclops fall in love with Madeline in the first place when all she had to offer was a likeness to Jean.
When X-Men 175 ended with a monologue from Cyclops to Jean's gravestone about how his love for Madeline was unrelated to his relationship with Jean, I was out of there. It was clear to me that this guy looked like Scott Summers and kind of talked like Scott Summers, but he wasn't the Scott Summers that I had dug for so long until then.
The steps from marrying her to cutting her off seem right in line to me-- a line leading directly away from who Summers is supposed to be and toward the nobody who got executed in Ratner's X3 (or the psycho who took up with the White Queen -- pick your poison).
It was such a breath of fresh air to find Cyke alive and well in X:HY.
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Thanos Kollias
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Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 26 July 2007 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 11
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I think it was really heavily implied that Maddie didn't just bear a likeness to Jean. She looked exactly like her and had survived a plane crash the exact same moment Jean/Phoenix died on the moon, things that the Mastermind/Madelyne storyline didn't touch upon. Scott was attracted by the Phoenix/Jean in her.
I don't think that X-Men #175 was a finale. It was more or less a major cliffhanger. I think that Chris didn't really want to write any more Cyclops stories and tried to send him off.
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Phillip Lightfoot
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Joined: 19 June 2004
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| Posted: 26 July 2007 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 12
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<<<I think it was really heavily implied that Maddie didn't just bear a likeness to Jean. She looked exactly like her and had survived a plane crash the exact same moment Jean/Phoenix died on the moon, things that the Mastermind/Madelyne storyline didn't touch upon. Scott was attracted by the Phoenix/Jean in her.
I don't think that X-Men #175 was a finale. It was more or less a major cliffhanger. I think that Chris didn't really want to write any more Cyclops stories and tried to send him off.>>>
Interesting tidbit from Jim Shooter: (Alter Ego 24)
"My policy at Marvel was, if somebody dies at Marvel, they're dead. Okay, that's it. I really tried to insist on it. Of course, from the moment Phoenix died, against Chris' will, virtually every day he'd come in with a story introducing some character in the book who looked exactly like Jean Grey. And probably was Jean Grey. [laughs] And I kept saying 'No, no, no. I don't care if that person looks like her, but it's not her.' And we kept playing this kind of stupid game for a decade or so."
Ever wonder why X-Men #175 had JRJR do the final pages? Or That the story seemed to veer sharply away from where it was heading?
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Topic Closed)
