| Author |
|
Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Furthermore, here is a tally of the people Emma has "mind RAPED!!!" that I recall.
Mind RAPED!!! and tortured by Emma Frost:
- Storm x3
- Kitty Pryde has a teenager x2
- Colossus
- Wolverine
- Iceman
- Nightcrawler
Raped the old fashioned way by Emma Frost:
- Storm (Emma had Storm's body have non consensual sex with Sebastian Shaw when she mind raped her the second time around)
So there you have it, if you're gonna hate fictional characters for mind raping, Emma Frost should be first and foremost on the list of expert rapists. A wonderful, wholesome character who doesn't hurt the sensibilities of lung cancer victims. And an excellent choice to be co- headmaster at Xavier's school of rape.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Once when I had the flu I remember reading an issue of Swampthing where Anton Arcane chnaged his ways and became good. He became SO GOOD that he was redeeemed from the fires of Hell and gained the miraculous "powers of heaven" like a saint and he promptly used them to try and kill the Swamp Thing and take over the world. So he was like an evil yet inexplicably holy zombie.
That shit just didn't make any sense to me. It was just plain bizarre and idiotic!
(Sort of like Good Magneto or Good White Queen.)
Sometimes I think maybe I read it wrong. I hope I did.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133741
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
When I survey the borderline sociopathic behavior that seems to infect much of the internet, I wonder if the ease with which some fans accept the "redemption" of villains like Magneto, the Sandman, Juggernaut, the White Queen springs directly from this lack of proper social adjustment. The people who applaud these absurdities like the idea that a seemingly irredeemable bad guy can say "Oops! My bad!" and be handed a Get Out of Jail Free card, no matter what they have done before they became "good". These fans cannot quantify evil in their minds, so minor is no different from major. And the fiction holds out to them the promise of their own ultimate forgiveness, for sins real and imagined.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Pat Ditton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2007
Posts: 925
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
--- like Darth Vadar was redeemed in Return of The Jedi...?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
QUOTE:
| --- like Darth Vadar was redeemed in Return of The Jedi...? |
|
|
Pretty much. He needed what amounted to less than a suggestion from Palpatine to slaughter children.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 19 July 2007 at 6:28pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133741
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
--- like Darth Vadar was redeemed in Return of The
Jedi...?
•••
Exactly.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
JB's hitting it with "sociopath", since a vast river of the online community was raised in a clamshell of crude behavior, disrespect, fear, and prejudice. The individuals online have developed a shorthand for awful behavior that is accepted today, which would have been unthinkable 25 years ago. I mean "Jackass" level stupidity, which is another way an economically/culturally overinundated society lashes out against itself. The degrees to which people in general everywhere will go to dismiss common courtesy and common sense and honesty and just about any societal "restriction" on their right to be flaming assholes is mindboggling.
No small wonder then, that the generational shift in story narrative, that every villain turns out to "not be so bad" no matter WHAT they've done, is a cultural justification. Worse, this thinking, which has reached epidemic levels in the court systems, is now fully infecting the political system.
America itself is Superman, only if Superman did nothing but beat up the Trickster, while also shitting in the rivers, using super breath on the forests, and pissing on human rights whenever feasible. All the while burning up the planet's fossil fuels in a race with extinction, as if Superman did not recall his birthplace exploded perhaps under the weight of its own excess (pure speculation). I'm not a political cat, I'm just creating an analogy here.
Anyway, Magneto will always be the cowardly slime he was in the early X-MEN and FF. Sandman is a cretinous bigot. Rogue is the bitch that stole Ms. Marvel's powers and almost killed her. Emma Frost is wank material, just another generic villainess. Venom is an alien parasite. Punisher is an obsessed murdering vigilante. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I pretty much find little to recommend these characters, but they are villains in my mind and always will be.
There's plenty of Dragon Mans and High Evolutionarys and Mystiques and Black Widows and Paladins if you need that "ambiguity" to their pursuits. I like a villain who ain't all villain, and a hero who ain't all hero, but when they commit crimes like murder, genocide, mind-rape, and cannibalism, they pretty much are irredeemable. "Fans" of characters like them who justify horror for the coolness of the character are, well, kind of twisted. Sorry to say.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Ron Chevrier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1641
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
I think a badguy character can try to mend his ways given enough
impetus. Sandman looked like he was trying to go the straight and
narrow but ultimately reverted to type. A good villain is to good to
remain a law-abiding citizen for long, and his baser nature should
always reassert itself. I think the fact that Sandman tried and failed
to reform makes him a more interesting and perhaps tragic character. He
is more realistic in my eyes than all those mass-murdering
On the other hand X-villains who drop in out of the blue and knock on
the front door of Xavier's Mansion with some sob story about being
hunted or their powers being on the fritz, really get on my nerves.
Sure let's take them in, put on the team and declare them leader
inside of five issues. "Because they really, truly want to change. Who
are we to deny them another chance blah blah blah?"
Hey! Here's a cool idea! Let's have Darkseidl knock on the
airlock door of the JLA Satellite and tell the team he's had a change
of heart, and he would like to use all his godly might and
resources to benefit humanity. The JLA take him in despite the many
bloody battles they fought against him with the fate of galaxies
hanging in the balance, and give him membership! Awesome! That would be
so totally believable!
For realistic internal conflict, Batman could have some mild
misgivings about the Dark Lord, but a few rousing words from Superman
and Wonder Woman about giving people a second chance would
eventually swing Batman's opinion to Darkseid's favor, and the two
frequently pair up on missions. Darkseid and the Dark Knight: an
unbeatable combo! Awesome!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Mikael Bergkvist
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1857
|
| Posted: 19 July 2007 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
The problem is that true evil is something seldom faced by most, and so they can't fathom it to be 'that bad'.
Darth Vader is kinda cool, so it's tempting to have him turning to the good side, since it's what kids want the good guys to be - cool.
It's a problem, because it shows that mythology of things seem to have little connection to the reality of things in peoples minds.
I heard this expression, "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".
And then they refer to Castro, among others, and while I dont have a particular opinion about the man, he never was a terrorist.
- He fought a guerilla war, and that's not the same.
Somewhere along the way, guerilla became terrorism in many peoples minds, and that's mainly because people have such a fuzzy notion about what's what.
Castro didn't make an enemy of the people during the actual fight, instead, he relied on them, and whatever happened with that, happened later after he had seized power.
The guerilla fighting is militaristic in nature, with military targets, and does not target innocent people specifically.
So, while these authors claim 'mythology' in all that they do, most seem to simply lack actual understanding of the subject they mess around with.
If Magneto had been a guerilla warrior, I might have gotten the point of it all, but he's a terrorist, and that's just low.
- There's no redemption for him!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
| |
Roque Martinez
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 292
|
| Posted: 20 July 2007 at 1:44am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
QUOTE:
| It's possible, I don't dispute that. IMO, then, it's a problem with
the storytelling. There should be confirmation so it isn't
hypothesizing. |
|
|
Morrison always leave certain things to be interpreted by the readers. IMO, that's one of the parts that I found enjoyable about his writing.
QUOTE:
| Again, for something supposedly so out of character, was a reaction, any reaction, from someone too much to expect? |
|
|
Though I agree, would that have made any difference in your dislike of the handling of Scott?
QUOTE:
| In any case, I see Thanos doing what you did, through his
interpretation of the evidence. That Morrison didn't like the X Men
the way they were when he got there, so changed it to something he
liked. Scott/Emma instead of Scott Jean, the end of the Xavier/Magneto
dynamic among the changes. |
|
|
IMO, most of the great runs in comic book history share similar traits, that being one of them. They always engender some negative reaction, but the reason they are memorable is because they dare to do something different. Even though I didn't liked NXM really that much, I prefer it to the years of stagnation and dullness of the runs before it.
QUOTE:
| When the first couple issues came out, I looked at boards to see the
reaction. I saw less of the divided camp than I did with Morrison.
Saleswise, it's easily been more of a success. It still sells great
even being late all the time. Someone lkes it. |
|
|
I found it to be generally very well received. As I said, Whedon is an expert in manipulating nostalgia.
QUOTE:
| Absolutely agreed in that I believe his intentions were not malicious.
He wrote what he thought were good stories. And that's where opinion
comes in. I, and many others, find it ironic that he would cite
Byrne/Claremont when he did things that were anathema to it. |
|
|
I also find it difficult to reconcile it with his run, but I believe it was more about Morrison trying to recreate the daring and excitement of the CC/JB run.
QUOTE:
Always is a stretch, and you know it. Scott's personal life isn't a mess in the last half of the original run.
Where is it "a mess" from 150-200? Most of the 90s? |
|
|
I don't think I said always. But it had a precedent. That's what I meant. I know you had already said it was different discussion, but I still consider it relevant when it comes to how Scott has been written during his history. Then there is his brief fling with Psylocke in the 90's. I know it was kwannon's influence there, it wasn't really his fault, and maybe neither was when he fell for Madelyne Prior. But it's not such a leap to say that perhaps, his love for Jean wasn't as absolutely strong as it seemed.
QUOTE:
| I was referring to Scott/Ugly John and ascribing intent that may or not be there. |
|
|
I asked because I considered it two different things. In that case, it was my interpretation of the story, based on what I knew about Apocalypse and Scott's comments about his influence. In the case of Magneto, yeah, I was merely mindreading. I don't know if Morrison hates or likes the character. Or it is possible that he had a vision of the character as it was before Claremont added to it, and thought his actions inexcusable.
QUOTE:
| It's amazing how accepting you are when you like the story.
That's how I feel when I'm reading the stuff coming out of Scott's
mouth. Morrison is forcefeeding his take on Scott/Jean on the reader. |
|
|
Sure, just like we have already said, we accept retcons and interpretations of the characters that are in line with how we view them, and reject those who aren't. In the case of Magneto, it could be argued that it was how he was originally portrayed it, and Morrison acknowledged his 'honorable' side in the Xorn masquarade and the internal conflict during Planet X. Which was defeated by the evil, terrorist side of Magneto.
QUOTE:
| It's up to the reader. When Planet X came out, it had many staunch
defenders. Many people who agreed with the take on Magneto. Agreed
100%. |
|
|
Indeed. I saw many of those comments.
QUOTE:
Wasn't Morrison's father dying at the time? I recall seeing him admit
that it might have resulted in the story being a bit darker. I have
NEVER seen Morrison
admit to any mishandling of a specific X character. I could have done better with Scott or Jean or Magneto. |
|
|
Something like that, yeah. I'm not quite sure, but it was some kind of personal sadness like that.
QUOTE:
We disagree, fundamentally. First off, Scott shared the rapport with
her. For him, it should be a big deal as well. IMO, no way is
Morrison trying to say it's worse because it's Scott/Jean. He's not
trying to say, it's worse because this couple had a psychic rapport.
The psychic rapport is never mentioned once in the issues. |
|
|
My take is that Scott wouldn't necesarilly feel as strongly about it as Jean. Didn't he defended himself by saying it wasn't real, or something like it? But it is to Jean. Could the same be said if neither were telepaths as you suggested?
QUOTE:
| Let me be clear, this is conjecture. I have not seen Morrison say
this. IMO, he's trying to get the reader to ponder what is cheating
and what isn't.
|
|
|
That's what I'm saying. I don't think he showed a side stronger than the other.
QUOTE:
| Why wouldn't it have been? Scott's decided to stay on rather than walk
away. You think the only way Morrison can leave the reader with a
measure of hopefulness is to have Scott kiss Emma at Jean's gravesite? |
|
|
No, but I believe it's the most effective, and most apt, given the storyline.
QUOTE:
| There you go. Mental gymnastics are required. It may not have been
officially retconned, but it has been essentially. |
|
|
Still, under is officially retconned, it can be argued that the characters refered to her as a manner of speaking. (though I faintly remember that Morrison said that, for him, the real Jean was the one who died in UXM #137)
QUOTE:
| Well, I think he did throw in later that Weapon Plus was a splinter
group, but originally each project they worked on was numbered
consecutively. Yet, you had multiple Weapon Xs before. Garrison Kane
was a Weapon X. |
|
|
The way I understood it, Weapon Plus was the name of the mother organization which created the several Weapons. Kane was a member of the part of it that created the tenth weapon. Just as Isaiah Bradley was an earlier testing of the super soldier formula which was part of the first weapon.
QUOTE:
Maybe I need to check out your forums. It would be nice to see
them hated. But it was not the case where I was. The haters are loud
and vociferious, but there are many defenders. Comicboards has an
arcive, so does usenet. The posts are still there if someone wants to
look. |
|
|
I believe you, but in my case, the experience was very different. There was heavy criticism in the boards I frequented, where most of the praise was drowned.
QUOTE:
Of course, what is the only real objective measure that can be used?
Sales. Sins Past didn't sell through the roof, but Avengers
Disassembled and Civil War did.
And they didn't bleed sales on Sins Past, either. It just didn't explode like the others. |
|
|
IIRC, Sins Past did made ASM drop in sales. Nothing as dramatically as, say, the recent Flash relaunch, but enough for any other writer to have been removed from the book. But the sales were helped by the never ending line of stunts that followed.
Also, Sins Past is probably the only thing that had made Quesada imply that maybe was a mistake, and it was quickly buried.
[quote]Well, that's part of what sells nowdays. Big name creators and
crossovers. But if you're Marvel, who do you listen to? A couple
hundred people posting on the net or the several hundred thousand
buying the books?[quote]
The later, obviously, especially because the internet message boards does represent a fair sample of the comic buying public. Not the praise or criticism, but the amount of talk about a particular title.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1377
|
| Posted: 20 July 2007 at 3:21am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
This was mentioned upthread: There is no Phoenix force which one person controls at a time. It's just incredibly high end TK.
Now, Ive only read most of the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run, and that was my interpretation too: Jean was an immensely powerful psychic whose power manifested itself as the Phoenix effect. And that was it as far as I was concerned.
Now many many years later Im told that its a living breathing cosmic alien entity that flies around selecting people? Have I got that right?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Peter Svensson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1470
|
| Posted: 20 July 2007 at 3:31am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Yeah. The retcon that allowed Jean Grey to be revived is that Jean was replaced by the Phoenix, an absurdly powerful entity which took on her identity so completely that it didn't realize it wasn't Jean. This copy of Jean was what died, and the real Jean Grey had been in stasis for years until the Avengers rescued her.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
|
|
Topic Closed)
