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Bradley Dean
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 March 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 538
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| Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 1
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Wow, that is an excellent argument. Welcome Larry!!
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 2
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That's some first post, Larry. Welcome aboard.
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Aaron Smith
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Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 16 July 2007 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | 3
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Welcome to the forum, Larry. What a fine first post!
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Roque Martinez
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Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 292
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| Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 4
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Larry Morris wrote:
Well, at least you acknowledge that much. And it is someone like Logan
serving as a mouthpiece for Grant Morrison's view on the costumes, not
something Logan,
in character, would say. He's worn a costume, of his own volition, far too long for this to be the case. |
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Yes, which is exactly what I said. Except for the part about Morrison voicing his own opinions about the costumes. He doesn't have a problem with, say, Superman's 'Action Suit' in All Star Superman. It goes back to his belief that the X-Men aren't superheroes.
QUOTE:
| No more mindreading than you were guilty of with your take on Cyclops
and Ugly John. The page was posted here. Is anyone here seriously
going to try to tell me that Scott's dialogue there sounds anything
like Apocalypse? |
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No mind reading needed. Cyclops comments on the effects of his possession and he does something which I agree seems out of characters. It doesn't need to be spelled. However, when someone says a writer does something out of "ego" most of the time is mind-reading.
I don't remember much about Return to Weapon Plus, so I'll take your word for it.
QUOTE:
| Thanos' point about the marriage is correct. Whether you like it or
not, Scott an Jean were happily married for 6 years(our time). It's
not arguable on panel. |
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And I didn't argued against it, did I?
For the record, I did like Scott and Jean as a couple and I hated his pairing with Emma. Especially after Joss Whedon gave Scott a Testicletomy.
QUOTE:
| Morrison, rather than being satisfied with simply having Scott come
back and say I'm different, thus we don't work anymore, retroactively
diminishes he marraige, and everything between them since 1986, to
going through the motions. The drinking issue has Scott basically
calling it an overblown teenage crush. |
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Yeah, that's what character development and retcons do sometimes. The characters change and evolve, sometimes into things we don't like.
QUOTE:
| Read Morrison's interviews and he says basically the same things he has
Scott say. Again, the characters are a mouthpiece for his beliefs
rather than acting how they've always acted. |
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So? Every writer does that in every interview, in every message board post. JB does it. Chris Claremont does it. Mark Waid does it. Every single character is a 'mouthpiece' of the belief its writer has about how it should act. Sometimes we disagree with them.
QUOTE:
| After all is said and done, was Scott turned into a radically different person? |
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Some here would disagree, but I'd say no. His personality may have shifted, but he still was the consumate leader of the X-Men he always had been.
QUOTE:
| Which is he? The badass Scott who fired full blast at Magneto's head
from about 5 feet? Or is he the Scott who is apologizing for hurting
him after he did? |
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Both. One of the reason I heard from those who like NXM is that Morrison made Cyclops into a more rounded character. With contradictions, and perhaps more 'real'. I disagree. Morrison didn't made all that up, it was all that already, he was already a great characters, he just tied him up in a more coherent whole.
BTW, your assesment of Apocalypse's possession of Scott I think it's spot on.
QUOTE:
Exactly. He not only killed Magneto, he mocked him.
It's also
stretching credibility that he could kill Jean with EMP energy after
the stunts she had pulled to save herself and Logan and get them back
to earth so quickly. |
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I agree. Sometimes it's pretty clear when a writer doesn't like a character and does everything in his power to screw him (something that most writers do, even those who are hailed as being faithful to the characters)
Also, as you mention, Jean's death was very anticlimatic.
QUOTE:
| It was a horrible depiction of Scott. For me, moreso for what he's
saying than that he was drinking. I suppose it was a nice touch to see
how much Logan respected Scott(although I don't think he would after he
cheated on Jean). There is also that great bathroom scene where Logan
and Sabreooth are checking out each others' manhood. |
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I also liked the talk. It gave a nice introspection to what Scott's feelings and thoughts at that moment were. And it sounded what an honest talk would be between two trusted friends who respect each other. However, I'd also could have done without the bathroom scene.
QUOTE:
| I do think that Morrison may have been trying to explore the
ambiguities of what is cheating, but it doesn't work for Scott and
Jean. She is a telepath and they had a psychic rapport. You do this
story with a couple where neither is the telepath and then introduce
one as the third party. |
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I disagree. I think that it works precisely because the cheated party is telepathic. If both were non-telepaths, it would be harder to say it was actual cheating. But since Jean is a telepath, Scott being so close to Emma made it seem as if it was as bad as a physical affar, perhaps even much worse, given the close psychic rapport they shared for so long.
QUOTE:
| I wouldn't say she tortured Emma. She threatened to, though. She said
that if Emma didn't tell her what happened in Hong Kong that she would
make her relive the deaths of her students over and over. |
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A bluff, perhaps? I don't know. In any case I was expanding on the points raised against the run. "Jean tortures Emma" is a bitching soundbyte.
QUOTE:
| No, Jean said "live Scott". She did not say, kiss your mistress at my gravesite. |
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She might as well said that. No, she didn't specify. But it's clear that she wanted him to move on ('All I ever did was die on you") and be happy. And at that point it was clear that Emma had a change of heart and truly loved Scott.
Was it in poor taste? Perhaps. But that kiss meant the hellish, Sublime controlled future wouldn't come to pass. Happy ending, love triumph, acceptance, forgiveness, blah, blah, blah. Even I liked it, and I hate the Scott/Emma couple too.
QUOTE:
I don't think Jean's fallen out of love with Scott.
I think the
reverse is true. Jean is just evolving into a goddess, something beyond
the team and Scott. Several of the later issues read like she realizes
that she won't be around much longer. |
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Spot on.
QUOTE:
| Morrison essentially undid the 86 retcon without flat out saying it.
The characters just start referring to Jean like she's the character in
UXM 101-137. HCT has Jean being reborn from giant egg . To me, that
was a nod to FF 286. Jean dies and is reborn that way. |
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Yes, that's true. That's why I mentioned it in the parenthesis. However, since he didn't especifically retconned it, it can still be seen as if the previous retcon is still in place. Yes, the characters say that Jean did indeed became the Phoenix, but the truth is, she did. The PF made a duplicate of her, had it been the real Jean, things would have played exactly the same way they did, right? So they were right in showing apprehension about the fact that the Phoenix force was merging with Jean.
QUOTE:
| Morrison makes a mess of the Phoenix concept just like he did with Weapon X becoming Weapon 10. |
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How does it make it a mess? Morrison's retcon didn't changed anything. Just added to it.
QUOTE:
| I also think it's a bit disingenuous to act like it's only the older
readers who dislike Morrison unless you've got anything other than
anecdotal evidence to support this. |
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Not anymore than claiming that NXM stories were aimed at the 'aging fanbase', without a shred of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. Which was what I was replying to.
QUOTE:
| I know X Men readers who started with the 70, 80s and 90s who hated
what Morrison did. I also know readers from those periods who love
what he did. |
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True. I also mentioned it.
QUOTE:
| Who are the biggest detractors of Sins Past, Avengers Disassembled and Civil War? |
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Frankly? Most who read it. To this day I have not seen more than three or four people say that Sins Past was was great. Even some who dislike NXM qualify they displeasure by saying that they might have been good stories, just not good X-men stories. And being good stories is something that the ones you mentioned just aren't.
Great post, Larry. I enjoyed reading it and replying to it.
Edited by Roque Martinez on 16 July 2007 at 7:44pm
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 16 July 2007 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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<<Boy, Larry, I sure do hope you're for real!! >>
I just checked with my wife and she says I'm for real.
I would be interested in seeing what you thought of Morrison's NXM, if you ever read it. Not that I expect you would. Morrison said over and over that Claremont/Byrne was the apex of the book.
I read every Claremont/Byrne issue and all 22 Hidden Years issues. The former has Chris' involvement, but I assume the latter is unequivocally your take on the originals, who happen to be my favorites.
I remember issue 2 and how Scott went out of his way to avoid killing a t rex that was trying to kill him.
I saw someone post Morrison's take on Magneto as if you guys agree somewhat on that then his treatment of Scott, Jean, Hank and Xavier is okay. Not that I KNOW you would dislike it, but it's my educated guess based on what I've read.
You mentioned believing that Scott should be better than us. Someone else mentioned reading these books to read heroes doing the right thing. Scott was my favorite X Men because of his positive character traits. I want to admire and respect Scott.
Here is something about Morrison's take on Phoenix that you might find interesting. Morrison sorta estabished Phoenix as an immune system for the universe. Phoenix disinfects was a term used several times.
Anyway, Morrison implied that this was the case with D'bari. That this was a function of Phoenix's duties.
To be fair, he implied it. Greg Pak flat out said it in Phoenix Endsong, so I don't think I was misreading the mplication.
How the hell you get that from UXM 136 is beyond me. D'bari was just a consequence of feeding on it's sun. Dark Phoenix was hungry, needed energy and really gave no thought, nor gave a shit, to the conequences of her actions. As the cocreator of that issue, correct me if I'm wrong.
Whatever, tons of people loved his run and there's no denying it. I've seen people who hated it accuse him of deliberately sabatoging the characters. That I do not believe. I think he wrote what he thought were good stories. That doesn't mean that I am required to think they were or agree with what he did.
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Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 16 July 2007 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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Larry, welcome to the forum. We seem to be seeing eye to eye on most, if not all, Cyclops/Jean/X-Men related matters.
I just want to add something that I remembered while reading your fist post ("Thanos' point about the marriage is correct. Whether you like it or not, Scott and Jean were happily married for 6 years(our time). It's not arguable on panel"):
Scott and Jean were marrried for about at least a decade comics time, if we take into account the fist Cyclops-Phoenix limited series. They are not a new married couple.
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Larry Morris
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Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 17 July 2007 at 12:45am | IP Logged | 7
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I know that, from their first limited series. It was actually 12 years, wasn't it? I didn't bring that up because those years were covered in a 4 issue mini.
I thought it might be more impactful to use real time.
For the reader, that's covering a whole lot longer.
They were married at the beginning of 94 and Scott
"died" at the end of 1999.
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Thanos Kollias
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Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 17 July 2007 at 3:47am | IP Logged | 8
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OK, Larry.
In any case, I sometimes wonder whether the reason JB's Hidden Years series was cut off was because it would be completely at odds with what Morrison did with the X-Men.
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Martin Redmond
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Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 9
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Oh please! Did she force a dildo into her? How about using the proper words to describe the proper crimes.
Edited by Martin Redmond on 17 July 2007 at 8:55pm
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6547
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| Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 10
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Oh please! Did she force a dildo into her? How about using the proper words to describe the proper crimes.
***
Mindraping is done with a dildo is it?
Forcing your way into the innermost private spaces of a mind would not be accurately described as "mindraped"? "Oh please" yourself.
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 17 July 2007 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | 11
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<<Oh please! Did she force a dildo into her? How about using the proper words to describe the proper crimes.>>
Look up the word rape in an online dictionary. I think you'll see violated or a violation there. Forced sexual intercourse is not the only definition.
Maybe I should have used IMO. IMO, Jean violated Emma. She violated the sanctity of Emma's privacy.
I won't dispute that it's arguable, but it met my definition.
Thanos, do you think my term was out of line? I ask because I know you like Jean, as I do, and read the Morrison run, as I did.
Edited by Larry Morris on 17 July 2007 at 10:54pm
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Thanos Kollias
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| Posted: 17 July 2007 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think it is more accurate than the word "torture" I used.
To tell the truth, had they shown it was Dark Phoenix doing the deed, I wouldn't have bothered. Since it wasn't though...
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Topic Closed)
